How important is layout to the TW tone?

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Bob-I
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by Bob-I »

mhuss wrote:2) Got rid of the parallel switch -- the buzz would increase if I even touched the toggle :shock:, one less antenna...
Hmmm... really? I've used that before with no issues. Did you have the unused side grounded when off?
3) Added a 10 ohm 5w resistor in series with the diodes to limit the peak charging current pulses.
This thread is the first I've heard of this method. Mostly I've seen folks use a ceramic cap across them.
4) Moved the first-to-second node 1k resistor off the PS board -- after running cranked for a while, it was getting too hot to touch, and I don't want to prematurely dehydrate my electrolytics.
That'a a good point. I have that resistor between the first 2 caps. Prolly not a good idea. :roll:
paulruby
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by paulruby »

mhuss wrote:After reading Paul's post above, I made a few changes last night:

1) Got rid of the input grid resistor; this made it noticeably quieter.
2) Got rid of the parallel switch -- the buzz would increase if I even touched the toggle :shock:, one less antenna...
3) Added a 10 ohm 5w resistor in series with the diodes to limit the peak charging current pulses.
4) Twisted the already short wires going from the PS board to the standby switch.
4) Moved the first-to-second node 1k resistor off the PS board -- after running cranked for a while, it was getting too hot to touch, and I don't want to prematurely dehydrate my electrolytics.

Now the hum is at least on a par with the hiss level. :lol:

--mark
Mark, if you post some guts pics, I would be happy to take a look...
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mhuss
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by mhuss »

Surely!

http://mhuss.com/builds/guts1.jpg (rear area)
http://mhuss.com/builds/guts2.jpg (side PS)
http://mhuss.com/builds/guts3.jpg (front, switch end)
http://mhuss.com/builds/guts4.jpg (front, controls end)

The hum is not too bad now, but still a bit more then I like.

I moved the coiled extra PT wires around a bit without changing the buzz significantly (as measured on the 'scope).

--mark
paulruby
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by paulruby »

mhuss wrote:Surely!

http://mhuss.com/builds/guts1.jpg (rear area)
http://mhuss.com/builds/guts2.jpg (side PS)
http://mhuss.com/builds/guts3.jpg (front, switch end)
http://mhuss.com/builds/guts4.jpg (front, controls end)

The hum is not too bad now, but still a bit more then I like.

I moved the coiled extra PT wires around a bit without changing the buzz significantly (as measured on the 'scope).

--mark
Here's what I think is the primary problem. The circuit *loop* of PT, diodes, 1st cap is not tight. I've traced that loop in this picture:

http://paulamps.com/guts2.jpg

I suggest you remove the CT line from the ground lug and run it tightly along the yellow PT lines to your PS board and connect it right to the negative of the 1st filter cap. The goal is to leave NO cross-sectional area in the loop. The way you have it now, there is large cross section area, which is an AM transmitter antenna.
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mhuss
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by mhuss »

paulruby wrote: Here's what I think is the primary problem. The circuit *loop* of PT, diodes, 1st cap is not tight. I've traced that loop in this picture...
Good call, Paul! I totally spaced the secondary CT, and 100% agree with your prognosis. Almost always, a second pair of eyes sees what the first pair does not... :oops:

Thanks very much for your time, and the catch. I'll report back once I've changed it.

--mark
Fischerman
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by Fischerman »

Just trying to understand this a bit better (I suspect this 'loop cross-sectional area' has haunted me before). After moving the PT CT to the board...will the resultant cross-sectional area then only be the top 'circle' in the figure-8 drawn in Paul's sketch?
paulruby
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by paulruby »

Fischerman wrote:Just trying to understand this a bit better (I suspect this 'loop cross-sectional area' has haunted me before). After moving the PT CT to the board...will the resultant cross-sectional area then only be the top 'circle' in the figure-8 drawn in Paul's sketch?
After running the CT along the yellow lines (or twisting them, even better) the circuit loop will look like this.

http://paulamps.com/gutsfix.jpg

And the existing gray wire from the board to the ground lug will serve to make the needed electrical connection back to circuit ground.
Fischerman
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by Fischerman »

Thanks for trying Paul but now you just threw me for a loop. But this is Bob's thread so I won't hijack it any further...maybe with more thought I'll get it. But thanks for trying.
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Bob-I
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by Bob-I »

Fischerman wrote:Thanks for trying Paul but now you just threw me for a loop. But this is Bob's thread so I won't hijack it any further...maybe with more thought I'll get it. But thanks for trying.
No... Hi Jack away. This is a great discussion on layouts.
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by paulruby »

Fischerman wrote:Thanks for trying Paul but now you just threw me for a loop. But this is Bob's thread so I won't hijack it any further...maybe with more thought I'll get it. But thanks for trying.
I'm simply drawing the actual physical path of current flow from PT (yellow wires) through diodes, to 1st filter cap, out the bottom of first filter cap and back to the PT along the CT. I'm ignoring the stand-by switch to keep the drawing clear. That creates a circuit *loop*. All current flows in loops. It's the 1st filter cap charging current that generates the buzzy-hum. The more physical cross sectional area in the loop, the better that noise can be transmitted, just like an AM radio signal. The more the loop is twisted up to reduce cross section, the less of an antenna it is. I'm hoping this is clear because I'm not sure how else to describe it. If not clear, keep asking your question differently and maybe I'll get it...
Fischerman
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by Fischerman »

That's more clear. Maybe another example will make it more clear.

Below is a pic of my first attempt at an ODS (mid-build)...it's a new Mojo Bandmaster Reverb chassis. The orange wire goes from the diodes to the SB switch and there is a black wire connected to the same lug on the SB switch that goes to the filter caps in the doghouse. On the other lug of the SB switch is the OT CT and the choke...the other choke wire connects to pin6 and there is another black wire that goes from pin6 to the doghouse for the rest of the filters/dropping resistors (this black wire for the screen node filter cap is twisted with the black wire for the main/first filter node).

The PT CT is connected to a PT mounting bolt just out of the picture (it's same bolt that the shield for the grid wires is connected to at the bottom right...see that bare wire?). The filter cap ground is connected to that choke mounting bolt in the bottom right of the picture. Usually I ground the filter and CT at the same point but I goofed and was hoping a couple of inches wouldn't matter.

Thanks Bob, Paul, etc. This is something I've never heard of and would like to learn more.

[img:600:800]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/m ... layend.jpg[/img]

Editted to change an 'OT' reference to 'PT'. (_8^(l) doh!
paulruby
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by paulruby »

Do you have a buzz problem in this build? If not there's no need for change.

But, the key thing is to keep a tight loop to the first filter cap. So, during the build process, to do so, I always run the CT right to the negative side of the first filter cap, and keep the PT, diodes and cap very close to each other. Like this:

http://paulrubyamplification.com/MartaGuts2.jpg

You can see the red CT line going directly to the negative end of my series filter caps on the PS board. Very tight loop with all components, including stand-by switch very close.

As yours is built, that cap charging current travels from the PT, to the bridge, to the stand-by switch, to the filter cap, to the choke mounting bolt, through the chassis, to the PT mounting bolt, back to the PT. This might be OK if the antenna formed by this loop isn't quite aimed at the critical circuits, so may be fine. But, it's a risk. If you have a buzz problem in this amp, then I would consider this as a potential source of the problem.

I'm being careful to say that what you've done might be just fine to avoid the inevitable reply from someone who happened to choose a risky layout but managed to get good results. Doing something risky doesn't directly mean something bad will happen. But, I prefer to follow the less risky paths when I build so I don't need to re-work when something bad does happen. The picture above represents a method I can say works every time at avoiding the buzz. And is part of a couple other things I do: No grid stopper on the input stage; circuit ground to chassis right at the input jack.
Fischerman
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by Fischerman »

Thanks Paul...I hope to finish it this weekend. I had considered enlarging the hole at the very end of the chassis (usually used for a rectifier tube) and paralleling a 32uFx2/500v cap can for the first node. In hindsight now...I wish I had taken the extra time/trouble to do that...then the cross-section would be pretty small. If it turns out to be a real problem...I can mount the cap can inside the chassis on the side wall. Thanks again for taking the time to spell it out for me.
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skyboltone
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by skyboltone »

There are just so many ways to skin the cat as they say.

Thanks Paul for the gut shot.

(After careful second look, retraction retraction)

Experience, oh how I wish you could just pay for it. In the mean time all the old books tell us to twist the filaments and lay them hard on the chassis. Until I know better I'm gonna just stick with that.....pure sacrilege in a D build I guess.

Dan H
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Fischerman
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Re: How important is layout to the TW tone?

Post by Fischerman »

I didn't even think about that Dan...I think I just saw a Fender chassis and...the heater wires went up in the air. In my Marshall and Express builds I put them against the chassis.
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