Is "BLOOM" a sustainy, harmonicy, type of thing?

[tictac]

So do I understand this right, that your first coupling version was similar in its general structure (but not in detail) to the kind of coupling version shown in the attched schematic?

Actually no, it was cathode coupled to the power tube grids thru the .22 caps...

I did try the Odyssey PI but I was getting alot of oscillation so abandon it...

TT

[tag101]

I've heard people talk about bloom every now and then but I'm not sure exactly what it is. Seems to apply more toward distorted tones but can you get Bloom from a clean amp too?

Bloom is simply what a note does after you pick it. Does it come out fast and hard and die away quickly? That would be very little, if any bloom. Take a tube rectified amp and crank it WAY up. You will hear the note come out and then kind of gain a little volume (called "swell" most of the time) before it starts to die out. Thats a lot of bloom. Guitars also do this on their own, and amps can either accentuate, or diminish the guitars acoustic bloom characteristics. Many ODS Dumbles have lots of bloom, especially for a SS rectified amp, and even have it at very low volumes. The absolute best (to me) and certainly the rarest Dumbles actually "play" with the note depending on how hard and the way you pick it. I call it note "flipping", and its not a pinched harmonic or feedback. You can hear lots of it in this clip of Dumble 183 and the Quinn TKT 183 clone. The trait I am talking about you can hear clearly on the held note at exactly 5 seconds into the clip. You can hear it changing its harmonic character totally on its own. You can hear similar types of "exclusive Dumble nuances" throughout the clip. I rarely, if ever hear these things in clones, and for ME, what makes the Quinn and a few TwoRock models so great. Many vocal like sounds, like a human voice. Hope you can dig regardless of the somewhat poor recording quality.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1

[tictac]

You can hear it changing its harmonic character totally on its own...

I like your description of what's going on, that's exactly what I'm hearing... the harmonics are not present at first, but then they appear a few seconds later and all you're doing is holding the chord, the amp is doing the rest...

TT

[LeftyStrat]

I don't claim to know everything that's going on, but this is my understanding of what is going on.

The human ear perceives even harmonics and 2nd order distortion as "sweet" sounding. Odd harmonic distortion is much more apparent.

A cathode follower tends to flatten or soft clip half of the waveform on loud transients, and this asymmetrical distortion increases second order harmonics. As the note decays this prominence shifts, almost like the sweep of a filter.

That third gain stage in the Express does something similar.

As tag mentioned, rectifier sag can emphasize this, since the temporary lowering of voltage causes the preamp tubes curves to be squashed. People sometimes think that sag is all about amplitude, but there is harmonic shifting going on also.

There's still more going on. I've always felt an amp was sort of a chaotic system. Spent some time hitting a gong and listening to the decay, it's like the energy of the impact grows a bit, as all the vibrations come into alignment before it starts to decay.

[tag101]

You can hear it changing its harmonic character totally on its own...

I like your description of what's going on, that's exactly what I'm hearing... the harmonics are not present at first, but then they appear a few seconds later and all you're doing is holding the chord, the amp is doing the rest...

TT

Glad someone is hearing it like I do.

Its a fantastic effect, almost like a built in wah pedal that can be controlled a bit by your picking. I have never heard any amp other than very select Dumbles do it, or at least anywhere near the extent that 183 does it. It is the main thing that turned my stomach when I first played the amp because I knew in my heart I was going to have to spend the $$ to get it. So fine. Dumble really is a genius. (As if we didnt know that already)

[Max]

Actually no, it was cathode coupled to the power tube grids thru the .22 caps...

I see. I don't know an original Dumble amp with an inverter / driver configuration and a driver cathode coupled to the power tube grids thru a cap.

Bloom is simply what a note does after you pick it.

"It is not really as listening to music but, better, dreaming with music." Andrés Segovia

Some dream theory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJrEl4Ns ... re=related

Some dreaming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaxU0Tzd ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXR_eLlZDAs

The human ear perceives even harmonics and 2nd order distortion as "sweet" sounding.

AFAIK it might be even more important in regard to the human perception of the timbre of an instrument as "sweet" or "soft" etc. vs. "hard" and "harsh" etc. what happens in the time domain than what happens in the frequency domain. Here you can listen to two clips demonstrating the influence of the ADSR envelope on the human perception of timbre:
http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu. ... velope.htm

Cheers,

Max

[martin manning]

AFAIK it might be even more important in regard to the human perception of the timbre of an instrument as "sweet" or "soft" etc. vs. "hard" and "harsh" etc. what happens in the time domain than what happens in the frequency domain.

Another interesting demonstration of the components of timbre, this one looking specifically at the attack. The interview is interesting throughout, but the part I refer to begins at about 2:50.

http://www.npr.org/2010/11/19/131447060 ... s-of-music

[tictac]

I don't know an original Dumble amp with an inverter / driver configuration and a driver cathode coupled to the power tube grids thru a cap.

You're correct of course... I thought I was going to need to add another transformer to achieve the high voltage, high current, negative supply needed for direct coupled cathode followers. didnt have the room on my chassis so I went the cap coupled route. There was always something missing though...

Then when SSS schematics started to appear it was like, duh... half-wave supply off one of the B+ PT taps.... a diode, a resistor, and a cap. Way easier than I thought...

Glad I tried the direct coupled circuit; the amp seems more stable when you push it hard as well...

TT

[tag101]

Bloom is simply what a note does after you pick it.

"It is not really as listening to music but, better, dreaming with music."[

Max

Hey Max,
Hope all is well.

I really have no idea what you are talking about in relation to bloom in your above post. Sorry.

However, your link here......
http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu. ... e.htm#sub2
.....shows pretty much exactly what I was saying. Thanks!

[LeftyStrat]

Another interesting demonstration of the components of timbre, this one looking specifically at the attack. The interview is interesting throughout, but the part I refer to begins at about 2:50.

http://www.npr.org/2010/11/19/131447060 ... s-of-music

Thanks for sharing that. Very interesting.

[CHIP]

Actually no, it was cathode coupled to the power tube grids thru the .22 caps...

I see. I don't know an original Dumble amp with an inverter / driver configuration and a driver cathode coupled to the power tube grids thru a cap.

Bloom is simply what a note does after you pick it.

"It is not really as listening to music but, better, dreaming with music." Andrés Segovia

Some dream theory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJrEl4Ns ... re=related

Some dreaming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaxU0Tzd ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXR_eLlZDAs

The human ear perceives even harmonics and 2nd order distortion as "sweet" sounding.

AFAIK it might be even more important in regard to the human perception of the timbre of an instrument as "sweet" or "soft" etc. vs. "hard" and "harsh" etc. what happens in the time domain than what happens in the frequency domain. Here you can listen to two clips demonstrating the influence of the ADSR envelope on the human perception of timbre:
http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu. ... velope.htm

Cheers,

Max

Max,
Thanks for the enlightening link on the influence of the ADSR envelope.
I think some of the great players are able to achieve this note "bloom" by coaxing it out of guitar and amp. Thus the phrase "It's all in the hands."
I'm sure it's even more fun with an amp that takes off on it's own.

[vibratoking]

AFAIK it might be even more important in regard to the human perception of the timbre of an instrument as "sweet" or "soft" etc. vs. "hard" and "harsh" etc. what happens in the time domain than what happens in the frequency domain.

Max, I don't agree with your statement of importance. In order to avoid a misconception, the time domain and frequency domain are inextricably linked. The Fourier transform and inverse Fourier transform are well-defined and there is no information lost if you examine ALL the information - (amplitude and time) and (magnitude and phase). In order to fully understand a signal one must examine both the time domain and frequency domain aspects. In general, I would not put a greater emphasis of one over the other. This is where is think some of the information in the link could be misleading to some. I have noticed that many people ignore the phase information in the Fouier transform which is ignoring a very important part of the information. The problem is that the phase information is more abstract and harder to understand so very often it is ignored. I scanned and attached an example containing an image to illustrate the importance of the much ignored phase information. This is a powerful example, IMO.

From the article:

* How could this string instrument sound to me like an organ? Well, the resonances of the harpsicord string are very nearly harmonic, so its sound spectrum is very nearly harmonic. The organ's is almost exactly harmonic. In an old pedal organ, sometimes notes get louder as they are played. So that is the nearest example I could find for this timbre.

It is interesting that while trying to state the importance of time domain aspects and that the frequency domain information can be misleading, the author chooses to use frequency domain concepts to explain why the backwards harpsichord sounds like an old pedal organ. The two are linked and it is not wise to place an emphasis on one over the other.

BTW, the phenomenon in the mp3 that tag posted, and that he is calling flipping is not fully described in the time domain IMO. Yes, there is a time domain aspect to it because the frequency content that is most apparent transistions from fundamental to octave as time progresses. What tag is calling flipping is a good example of why you should not place an emphasis on one or the other. Timbre is composed equally of time and frequency aspects, IMO.

EDITED: changed bloom to flipping

[tag101]

BTW, the phenomenon in the mp3 that tag posted, and that he is calling bloom is not fully described in the time domain IMO. Yes, there is a time domain aspect to it because the frequency content that is most apparent transistions from fundamental to octave as time progresses. What tag is calling bloom is a good example of why you should not place an emphasis on one or the other. Timbre is composed equally of time and frequency aspects, IMO.

Just to be accurate, I am not calling that "flipping" effect bloom. Its an effect that seems to happen after the initial bloom, and while the note is stabilized (sustaining) or starting to decay. Interesting conversation.

[vibratoking]

My mistake. The clip contains an example of flipping of the held note at exactly 5 seconds. So, then I am still not quite certain that I know what bloom is. Clip anyone? I will edit my post to correct it for future readers.

[tag101]

My mistake. The clip contains an example of flipping of the held note at exactly 5 seconds. So, then I am still not quite certain that I know what bloom is. Clip anyone? I will edit my post to correct it for future readers.

That note still has bloom, flip or not.

As I said before... An amp that has a lot of bloom would be an amp that a picked note seems to rise in volume a bit (Blooming) before leveling off and decaying. An amp with little or no bloom would be an amp that a picked note seems to come out loud and fast and hard, and then start to decay very quickly. Dumble amps seem to have quite a bit of bloom for a SS rectified amp, even at low volumes. To feel what a LOT of bloom sounds and feels like in a D style amp, crank a twoRock Type 3 50 watter way up and give a listen. They are tube rectified, and when cranked, have a lot of sag both clean and dirty. That slows the bloom down quite a bit.