Old glass and parts hype or fiction ?

[qtone]

I was a tad hesitant to try old glass in a ODSR clone I own here..
I went ahead and took a chance and bought some telefunkens for the ODSR.
I can say they made a giant difference as they were matched triodes tested true.. I was hesitant about that too but no longer.. I had brand new glass in my amp and we thought perhaps it needed some oldies in there to mix things up... after we put the telefunkens in it improved 999% right off we will add a mullard to v2 just for grins and roll some other glass through mine...

My ODSR is not burned in fully yet so its being left on this week and we are going to roll other glass to see if the lead channel comes more alive then it is now... I am going to take the next step and try getting old parts known parts in those circuits to see if that wont bring it up another notch..
I am told that with the older parts which might make a huge difference in sound that if you invest there the old glass is not so much a must as the amp will really shine with great glass but even more so if your budget allows $$$$$ glass every few months.

I think I like the idea of spending the investment for the old parts and then if and when the old glass does dry up I could at least still get great sound
from the amp with newer glass... I bought a great tube tester which does both preamp and output tube testing and its a Digital unit which is on the way now..

This is a science therefore if you do happen to stumble across that magic tube set it might be nice to write everything down about the tubes that just so happen to float your ship. If one does both the old original parts and the old glass, it could become a very expensive habit.

The next step is old parts for my ODSR.. Just to chase the rabbit on down the hole..

I already did on some old glass and I must say it improved my amp
and started to steer it where I wanted it to be tone wise.
So I figure the old parts can only help more...

We will get clips with just old glass before old parts
and clips with old glass and old parts.

I know how the new glass sounds and already the old tubes made a giant difference to the tones I wanted to hear.

So Id say that hype is 10000% for real and My spidey hunch says the old parts might really make these amps dial in and behave how I want.

I read alot about people getting these Ods or Odsr type amps and cant
figure the knobs out or switches Me included in that bunch.

So I figured Id start a thread to mention some of the things that helped
get my amps going in the right direction to the tones I wish to hear.

Greg D Clark is here basically voicing my entire system...

I can say his amp sounds amazing even at living room volumes
the girth and tone is leaps and bounds beyond most amps.

I said make mine sound that way please he said old glass and I gotta mess with some settings... even the settings made a difference on how the amp reacted and sounded for his playing and mine.

I must get used to it as the amp can do many many things but unless its really dialed in these amps can get frustrating for someone such as me who is a novice in the D style amps.

What have I learned ?

a. Old glass helps especially if its balanced matched triodes and there I admit it... hard for me to believe that but im honest with thyself and my ears dont lie to me and the old glass helped 100%


B. The settings can make or break these amps so Im suggesting to Greg
Too make a book as well video explaining what these knobs do.

C. The old parts myth.... We are going to record this week with the amps
both Gregs which is dialed in great right now and mine which is still in need of full 100 hour burn in ..
Mine is the sister amp to Gregs so its really close..

He thinks if we turned the reverb off on both that they would sound the same....

So I think it would be good to get some clips of one thats already dialed in with old glass...

My amp which has teles in v1 and v2...

Then both amps with old glass and old parts...

I want an audio representation of new glass then old preamp glass
then old glass and old parts.

To fully bust that hype or to prove its not hype at all..

More to come...

[amplifiednation]

Qtone, considering an amp is properly built, glass makes all the difference IMO!!! Great to hear you fellas are having fun. Don't burn that amp in with good glass!

[David Root]

The number of times I have put a good testing old (not necessarily NOS) 12AX7 in V1 of peoples's amps, including my own, and seen the owner's immediate reaction, usually Wow, holy s**t! makes me feel really subversive.

There are maybe two or three current production 12AX7s that can get close to the old stuff IMHO, and exactly none that can do what a good testing old Mullard will do in V1. You have never really heard an old Marshall if they don't have old Mullards in them.

Last time I did this was especially fine because it didn't cost anything. My guitar tech had just finished setting up my new parts Tele and had his old 1960 Super out. I had recently recapped it and put a bias pot in it, so he cranked it up and it sounded very good. There were three rather well worn Amperexes in it, so he pulled out a small box with four 12AX7s in it and I looked them over. Lo and behold one labeled Phillips Made in Gt. Britain that was an I65 Mullard, so he pulled the ageing Amperex out of V2, put in the Mullard, and the change was palpable. More harmonics, more smooth high end, more articulation.

Nothing subtle about it, and all to the good.

[Mark]

I tried several Mullards in this amp and I can't say I was all that wowed. I have heard of people preferring RFT's in Marshall, and the Mullard tubes I tried were somewhat dull sounding.

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=17698

I did try a Telefunken in my 18 watter in the PI and it sounds great in that position, but not all positions with in an amp are critical.

I found the PI tube made a difference, the D'Lite liked the Sovtek 12AX7LPS, the long plate JJ ECC803 sounded good in the V2 position and I used a JJ ECC083 in there V1 position as it is a short plate tube and not susceptible to microphonic noises.

I find the JJ tubes to be on the bright side, but they work well in these amps.

I find the NOS thing a little worrying, we have been buying NOS tubes since 1983, I wonder how these tubes compare to the tubes that were around in 1983.

I have bought NOS tubes from good sellers and found they went microphonic and I didn't get the life out of them that I would have gotten from a new tube.

To summarise, the tubes I used in 1983 did sound exceptional, the NOS stuff I'm hearing now aren't as good.

One man's findings of course.

[CHIP]

The real shame is that the supply is dying without replacements. Hard to believe in this day and age of technological advancement.
Some will say the market's not lucrative enough. I know that, but it's still depressing to think that in ten years or so, you will no longer be able to produce those wonderous tones of the past through your own tube amp.

[CHIP]

double post

[qtone]

double post

Yes exactly the tubes are going away slowly but surely...
It seems that using the older parts will focus these amps so well
that old glass is not needed.. Of course both is great...

I will say just the telefunkens in the ODSR made a giant improvement
tonewise...

I would buy two more of them just for backup right now..
I snagged a digital tube tester and its heading here this week so
now I can offer some NOS tubes and fully test them.

With Gregs help ill get that thing figured out and start listing some old glass I have here myself... 60-70 nos 12ax7s...

We are seeking a scope or even Pc program to make monitor a scope
then we can accurately dial in any new developments...

Meanwhile every tube in the house will be rated and sorted and listed.

Rca sylvania ge brimar phillips tung sol and some no names which were really great sounding tubes...

It will take a second with the tube tester but we will plow through all of them and then list those here..

Prices will be fair and trades will be welcome too..

Im going to put the old parts in the amp just to hear the difference
then it would be 1:1 and perhaps we can locate some new glass that gets in the same yard with the NOS glass..

Just something close enough.. so when the old stuff is just no longer or unreal expensive these amps can still sound great.

That should be awhile.. before that happens but still its a quest..

[brentm]

Just out of curiosity. Would you mind sharing the source for your tubes? Also, what tube tester did you purchase?

Couple threads around here talk about purchasing NOS or ANOS (test good but used) tubes... some of the perils and pitfalls of purchasing old glass. I've been ripped off a couple times myself from places I thought or was told were reputable.

Thanks!

[qtone]

Well the tube tester I bought is a digital one longhin is the type.

As for the tube source I bought these tubes in bulk off ebay and many other sources along the trail which would do you not good now as they have dried up..

I am going to test all the tubes in this house and keep what I need and sell the rest here on this forum and other forums to spread them out..

As for any other vintage glass ive found some on ebay and through private sources which I cant disclose because I dont even know who they are.

I go through friends who help me out but I cant divulge anything about who they know as I dont know them they do..


My intention is to rate every tube I ever buy from now on out...

[212Mavguy]

@ qtone...

Yup, I managed to collect a nice collection of old glass too, couple hundy of 'em at least. Matched triodes not as important in positions other than phase inverter IMHO in push pull amps. Sometimes a mismatch in a twin triode might sound better. Single ended topology like Fender Champ no matching at all needed.

Mullard shortplate 12ax7's are the darkest in tone among their Philips family brethren. Try to find a vintage Matsushita 12ax7 with the 45 degreee getter flash for the brightest tone of that tube family, made in Japan on Mullard tooling, very long lasting and very durable, resistant to microphonics. Amperex shortplate 12ax7 from same time as Mullard is brighter than Mullard but not harsh, a wonderful sounding Euro type 12ax7. My fave shortplate Philips family 12ax7 type is the Siemens e83cc. They are bold as love in their tones.

[CHIP]

double post

Yes exactly the tubes are going away slowly but surely...
It seems that using the older parts will focus these amps so well
that old glass is not needed.. Of course both is great...

I will say just the telefunkens in the ODSR made a giant improvement
tonewise...

I would buy two more of them just for backup right now..
I snagged a digital tube tester and its heading here this week so
now I can offer some NOS tubes and fully test them.

With Gregs help ill get that thing figured out and start listing some old glass I have here myself... 60-70 nos 12ax7s...

We are seeking a scope or even Pc program to make monitor a scope
then we can accurately dial in any new developments...

Meanwhile every tube in the house will be rated and sorted and listed.

Rca sylvania ge brimar phillips tung sol and some no names which were really great sounding tubes...

It will take a second with the tube tester but we will plow through all of them and then list those here..

Prices will be fair and trades will be welcome too..

Im going to put the old parts in the amp just to hear the difference
then it would be 1:1 and perhaps we can locate some new glass that gets in the same yard with the NOS glass..

Just something close enough.. so when the old stuff is just no longer or unreal expensive these amps can still sound great.

That should be awhile.. before that happens but still its a quest..

qtone,
That would be great to know the results of the 1 to 1 testing on some new glass, that gets you close to the NOS tubes. Thanks.

[qtone]

Well the tester is here and its real accurate allowing you to test each pin..
We are schooling on it today as well working on amps here and the rack.

I think its a great idea to go old parts and then see if the newer tubes
sound great or close as we can get to the old glass sound.

That wont be an easy chore but Greg D feels the old parts will make these amps really shine. He thinks that will help the new glass to sound better.
I like challenges and so we are going to do it to both our ODSR amps.

I wont be removing the old glass from mine unless we find something so close
I cant tell...

Id rather burn up new glass and keep the old for recording and such but the sound is go great and addictive to play fat chance of that happening..

Honestly I am the worlds largest skeptic I dont believe it until im picking my jaw off the floor so this is a real great surprise because I truly thought it was more snake oil but in these amps it really makes a difference..


I am becoming very spoiled on old glass and I just got started..
So time to trade and haggle and build the glass house..

[Structo]

I've been diggin the GE grey plates that have been recommended here.

You can find short and long plate 12ax7's for around $12-20.

Now these are not NOS but most likely pulls that test as new.

I feel that the NOS market is rapidly diminishing and that many of these dealers
are selling pulls or used vintage tubes anyway.

If it doesn't come in a factory box I suppose it could be from a flat of bulk tubes but
I was told if it doesn't come with the original box chances are that they are pulls.

So I just avoid that by buying good tested vintage tubes.

I found a Canadian GE 12AX7 with matched triodes for my PI.
Test shows 1700/17000 Gm.

I also have a handful of Raytheon black shiny plate and Sylvania's that were labeled Baldwin.

The organ tubes are usually good because they are select tubes for low noise.

[wokkel]

What measurable property distinguishes a good, NOS, tube from a mediocre, contemporary, tube?

And can't a change in parts surrounding the tube (e.g. changing the impedance of the next stage) give a comparable result to putting in a NOS?

Harald

[David Root]

Harald, I measure the gain, DC voltage balance, and microphonics of dual triodes on one digital tester, and the cathode current and transconductance of power tubes on another digital tester.

I don't use old so-called vintage testers because the vast majority of them test only transconductance, which has little to do with current draw, especially if you are trying to match power tubes or find a balanced dual triode for a PI, for example.

After that I measure them with my ear!

Most new production tubes simply don't sound as good as the old stuff, there are a handful that come close IMO, but none of them will last as long as NOS, nor are they anywhere near as reliable as NOS, simply because the quality control is not there today, and the metallurgy is very inferior.