Dumble & Mercury Magnetics

[collinsamps]

Tony if you get that pricing good on ya. I'm in the same boat with Brandon and have used exactly seven MM's in the past five years as a result. Even if I did get that pricing, I still can't support a product that is 98.99% hype driven and priced like they are.

FWIW, I came across a blown MM Tremolux "tone clone" doing a repair and tore it down to compare it to an oem woodward schumacher unit that had also gone bad. It's beyond me how anyone can "clone the tone" using completely different lamination thickness and metals, bobbin construction methods & materials(plastic), paper interleaving types and thickness, and wire gauges and types.

IMHO MM uses the matchless, badcat, star etc. proven method of mass media blitz and the theory that if it costs more it must be better

I'd put a magnetic components at 1/8th the price up against anything they make in a blind taste test on any given Sunday. I'm at the 3rd revision of my ODS model and getting close to a prototype but it will not have MM's on it for sure.

Oh.........and I can't end this without bringing up how many people are replacing ORIGINAL vintage fender & marshall iron with MM "tone clones" and then selling the originals on ebay for LESS than the MM's cost them. That to me is the text book definition of there's one born everyday.

Interesting... I have them in about 300 amps some of whom reside in quite a few of Nashville's largest drawing acts and studio pickers....I could care less about the hype...They don't give me the sound I want.. They don't go in my amp.

Tony

At Heyboer prices why not use the pretty end bells...........You're the first I've heard that gets that price regardless of astronomical quantitys.

That certainly wasnt meant as a personal attack, but since the consensus here is to jump down my throat when I post, hell why not take that tone. Congrats on your accomplishments, when you make the T-shirt I'll take 3 in XL.

I only have about 8 amps in Nashvillle all running Heyboers, but they'll probably be evicted from certain studios, the CMA's and fan fair until they paint their endbells once the news of Heyboer priced MM's gets out.

[collinsamps]

Tony if you get that pricing good on ya. I'm in the same boat with Brandon and have used exactly seven MM's in the past five years as a result. Even if I did get that pricing, I still can't support a product that is 98.99% hype driven and priced like they are.

FWIW, I came across a blown MM Tremolux "tone clone" doing a repair and tore it down to compare it to an oem woodward schumacher unit that had also gone bad. It's beyond me how anyone can "clone the tone" using completely different lamination thickness and metals, bobbin construction methods & materials(plastic), paper interleaving types and thickness, and wire gauges and types.

IMHO MM uses the matchless, badcat, star etc. proven method of mass media blitz and the theory that if it costs more it must be better

I'd put a magnetic components at 1/8th the price up against anything they make in a blind taste test on any given Sunday. I'm at the 3rd revision of my ODS model and getting close to a prototype but it will not have MM's on it for sure.

Oh.........and I can't end this without bringing up how many people are replacing ORIGINAL vintage fender & marshall iron with MM "tone clones" and then selling the originals on ebay for LESS than the MM's cost them. That to me is the text book definition of there's one born everyday.

.I wouldn't go so far as to say 98% hype...Some of the best sounding amps I.ve built have MM iron in them...I do agree that if your not at their 25 piece price I wouldn't go there either..Which is why I said what I said about them being more manufacturer friendly...

Tony

See what happens when you edit your post after I quote it............

[talbany]

Hey I didn't mean to jump down your throat which is why I rewrote my post after thinking about it Sorry if I offended..


Tony

[paulster]

The other thing (aside from the hype and price) that irks me is the little caveat tucked away in the 10 year warranty that you immediately void it if you use any form of attenuation device.

Granted, not generally necessary on a Dumble-style build, but how many people are going to either 'upgrade' their plexi iron or build new NMV amps with their iron and not use an attenuator?

[Funkalicousgroove]

I buy EVERYTHING at bulk pricing, I buy 25 transformers before I even have my morning OJ, the mercury prices are OUTRAGEOUS, and IMHO they don't sound very good. That's it, all i have to say about it- Over priced, over hyped, under toned.

[erwin_ve]

I buy EVERYTHING at bulk pricing, I buy 25 transformers before I even have my morning OJ, the mercury prices are OUTRAGEOUS, and IMHO they don't sound very good. That's it, all i have to say about it- Over priced, over hyped, under toned.

Except for the dynaco OT where you seemed to be very enthousiastic about a while ago?

[super100]

Speaking of Dynaco, has anyone tried the Triode A431-S Dyna Clone
output transformer?
It's rated 60/120 watts, depending on the frequency response range.
That might be a good lower cost alternative to the MM version.

[UltraHookedOnPhonix]

Speaking of Dynaco, has anyone tried the Triode A431-S Dyna Clone
output transformer?
It's rated 60/120 watts, depending on the frequency response range.
That might be a good lower cost alternative to the MM version.

Also looks like Hammond has a suitable alternative in the 1650NA:
www.hammondmfg.com/1608A.htm

[ampdork]

Considering the source...



Howard uses MM.



Does he really need the added hype only a MM could provide his amps with?



On a side not how the heck is it "Historically Accurate" to use a brand of iron that Howard never touched?
He used all kinds of irons. Most of which you can still get one way or another.



Never once did he ever use a Heyboer that I have ever seen or even heard of.



No panty bunching though ok kids? It is not an invitation to an arguement.



Just a valid observation from my perspective and one I did not see represented.

[super100]

Speaking of Dynaco, has anyone tried the Triode A431-S Dyna Clone
output transformer?
It's rated 60/120 watts, depending on the frequency response range.
That might be a good lower cost alternative to the MM version.

Also looks like Hammond has a suitable alternative in the 1650NA:
www.hammondmfg.com/1608A.htm

Yes, might be interesting to try.

Here are the links for the Triode Dyna clone.

35/70 watt:
http://www.triodeelectronics.com/noname.html

60/120 watt:
http://www.triodeelectronics.com/a4dyoutr43oh.html

[dogears]

Actually Shad, Brandon also uses NOS trannies when the situation dictates. For the record, Robben's amp does not have a Mercury in it. That amp is the best sounding Dumble by a huge long shot that I have come across. The best sounding and feeling Dumbles, in my limited experience had either Fender, Music Man, or Peavey iron in them.

I personally have not seen or heard a Mercury ironed Dumble. Although Brandon has.....

And, if you carefully measure the tranny specs, I do not believe it matters in the end whose tranny you use if it accurately wound. That is the attention to detail.

Considering the source...



Howard uses MM.



Does he really need the added hype only a MM could provide his amps with?



On a side not how the heck is it "Historically Accurate" to use a brand of iron that Howard never touched?
He used all kinds of irons. Most of which you can still get one way or another.



Never once did he ever use a Heyboer that I have ever seen or even heard of.



No panty bunching though ok kids? It is not an invitation to an arguement.



Just a valid observation from my perspective and one I did not see represented.

[greiswig]

(SNIP)The best sounding and feeling Dumbles, in my limited experience had either Fender, Music Man, or Peavey iron in them.

I've seen lots of posts about "amps with MM iron in them." At times, it is hard to tell whether we're talking Mercury Magnetics or Music Man. I wonder if that is part of where the confusion arises?

[M Fowler]

And to think HAD used under-rated/under-powered stock Fender iron.

I think we need to get back to building amps not worrying about whether the sticker on the iron says MM. If you want high quality, good tone and good looks put an Edcor tranny in your next build. They too over build their iron just like MM but without the hype or cost to the end user.

Heck lately I've been using Weber because its so friendly on the ole pocket book.

Mark

[Max]

Considering the source...



Howard uses MM.



Does he really need the added hype only a MM could provide his amps with?



On a side not how the heck is it "Historically Accurate" to use a brand of iron that Howard never touched?
He used all kinds of irons. Most of which you can still get one way or another.



Never once did he ever use a Heyboer that I have ever seen or even heard of.



No panty bunching though ok kids? It is not an invitation to an arguement.



Just a valid observation from my perspective and one I did not see represented.

Hi guys,

From my own experiences I can only repeat this:

What a Dumble makes a Dumble is not Tandy Wire, is no special kind of solder, no teflon cables, no Dynaco no Fender or whatever transformes, not special materials for chassis construction, no Orange Drops or Dales or Yellow Spragues or blue C-cons.

What a Dumble makes a Dumble is the technological knowledge, musical taste and technological intuition to combine everything he finds at radioshack or in an old fender or on the street in front of his shop or at a closed military base or elsewhere at a given time to built an amp exactly for the needs of his customer, as far as he understands these needs.

Just the same as a Benetton a Ferrari or a Brawn do not win or lose F1 championships because of special "wonder parts" but because people like Ross Brawn (as far as I remember: now 9 Fomula 1 championships with 3 different teams) have the creative intuition to find the best "mixture" of everything needed to win a Formula 1 championship.

So what about just studying electronics, developing an understanding for the needs of professional working musicians and by this gaining some own creative freedom, perhaps far away from the "Dumble" or "Trainwreck" or whatever road?

Of course I understand that cloning comes to mind as original Dumbles or Trainwrecks are now "collector pieces" and by this unavailable for most but Bill Gates. So I really don't blame anyone who tries this and obviously - in the case of Gil e.g. - this can end in some amps, that may be just perfect for their builders. And I really don't blame anyone too, who tries to build up a business where there is a demand.

And I think it's really great, that given Alexanders state of health, guys like Brandon keep guys like Larry on the road, and, as Rick tells, they are really happy with what Brandon does for them.

But on the other hand I always had and still have some difficulties to understand what kind of intellectual thrill it is for a first class engineer to re-engineer Fender, Dumble or whatever amps (as I so often read here how much "fun" cloning is).

Wouldn't it not be perhaps much more fun or thrill for a first class engineer to do the "impossible" and built the first transistor or even digital amp, that Carlos or Larry have fun to play with? Impossible? - like people driving in cars, as people thought at the beginning of the last century?

The only sense this re-engineering approach can make in my view (and if so, it would perhaps make a lot of sense!) is, to learn amp building in a kind of "Zen" or "Do" approach. Like Jimmy D'Aquisto started with cleaning D'Angelicos shop, then proceeded to "clone" his masters designs and ended up - before he sadly passed (I still have tears in my eyes thinking of him - one of the greatest guys I met until now) - in building the best acoustic guitar (his "Solo") I've ever had in my hands and being far away from the designs of his former master and teacher.

Cheers

Max

[talbany]

Considering the source...



Howard uses MM.



Does he really need the added hype only a MM could provide his amps with?



On a side not how the heck is it "Historically Accurate" to use a brand of iron that Howard never touched?
He used all kinds of irons. Most of which you can still get one way or another.



Never once did he ever use a Heyboer that I have ever seen or even heard of.



No panty bunching though ok kids? It is not an invitation to an arguement.



Just a valid observation from my perspective and one I did not see represented.

Hi guys,

From my own experiences I can only repeat this:

What a Dumble makes a Dumble is not Tandy Wire, is no special kind of solder, no teflon cables, no Dynaco no Fender or whatever transformers, not special materials for chassis construction, no Orange Drops or Dales or Yellow Spragues or blue C-cons.

What a Dumble makes a Dumble is the technological knowledge, musical taste and technological intuition to combine everything he finds at Radioshack or in an old fender or on the street in front of his shop or at a closed military base or elsewhere at a given time to built an amp exactly for the needs of his customer, as far as he understands these needs.

Just the same as a Benetton a Ferrari or a Brawn do not win or lose F1 championships because of special "wonder parts" but because people like Ross Brawn (as far as I remember: now 9 Fomula 1 championships with 3 different teams) have the creative intuition to find the best "mixture" of everything needed to win a Formula 1 championship.

So what about just studying electronics, developing an understanding for the needs of professional working musicians and by this gaining some own creative freedom, perhaps far away from the "Dumble" or "Trainwreck" or whatever road?

Of course I understand that cloning comes to mind as original Dumbles or Trainwrecks are now "collector peaces" and by this unavailable for most but Bill Gates. So I really don't blame anyone who tries this and obviously - in the case of Gil e.g. - this can end in some amps, that may be just perfect for their builders. And I really don't blame anyone too, who tries to build up a business where there is a demand.

And I think it's really great, that given Alexanders state of health, guys like Brandon keep guys like Larry on the road, and, as Rick tells, they are really happy with what Brandon does for them.

But on the other hand I always had and still have some difficulties to understand what kind of intellectual thrill it is for a first class engineer to re-engineer Fender, Dumble or whatever amps (as I so often read here how much "fun" cloning is).

Wouldn't it not be perhaps much more fun or thrill for a first class engineer to do the "impossible" and built the first transistor or even digital amp, that Carlos or Larry have fun to play with? Impossible? - like people driving in cars, as people thought at the beginning of the last century?

The only sense this re-engineering approach can make in my view (and if so, it would perhaps make a lot of sense!) is, to learn amp building in a kind of "Zen" or "Do" approach. Like Jimmy D'Aquisto started with cleaning D'Angelicos shop, then proceeded to "clone" his masters designs and ended up - before he sadly passed (I still have tears in my eyes thinking of him - one of the greatest guys I met until now) - in building the best acoustic guitar (his "Solo") I've ever had in my hands and being far away from the designs of his former master and teacher.

Cheers

Max

To be able to design a custom around someones needs or the tone they envision..To be able to build an amp in your mind while someone is describing this to you..Is an of itself a great talent...Not only from the engineering and design aspect but also that of an accomplished musician..Learning from experience this can only come from 1 mind as much of the fine details are lost within the translation between engineer and musician...Your correct this takes years of both playing and studying different topologies and many countless hours R&D and ear ringing
Apart from all this as an amp manufacturer or DIY'er you have monumental task of building a consistently great sounding amplifier..Max you yourself said and many others that not all Dumble amps have it going on...Whether this is due to design changes for various clients no one but the man knows for sure...You are right in the fact that the magic doesn't lie in a particular component part Transformers...What does lie in certain parts is consistency or some semblance of consistency....
If your recipe for a particular sound calls for 6PS caps MM, Heybor Transformers carbon film resistors whatever delivers a particular sound you want on a consistent basis that's what you go with regardless of price (To a Point)..To me that's what those certain parts bring to the table the rest lye's in the brush strokes... By the way Max I liked your post..

Tony