Stancor - Pacific - Heyboer - Marstran - MM - Edcor - Ceria

[RJ Guitars]

One thing I have found with the Wreck Cloning crowd is that deviation from "the formula" seldom meets the approval of the faithful. That is to say, the idea is to stay as close to the original as humanly possible within the constraints of price and availability of original components. Other than a bit of a reckless love affair with nicely machined heavy gauge aluminum chassis, the cloning faithful have kept the Wreck standards pretty close for better or worse. In my years with the AGF, Heyboer transformers have been a standard part of that formula.

We all know that transformers are a critical part of the sound. After years of AGF devotion to Heyboers it seems they have fallen out of fashion here lately... or is my read incorrect on this? It's my observation that in the last couple years, Pacific's have become the golden child of the Wreck cloning community. If indeed this is a trend, what are the differences and what does this say about the Heyboer transformers and all those cloned amps using them?

Does this imply that it is possible to get to tone Nirvana via an alternate transformer path or are the Heyboer powered rigs not as good as the Pacific powered ones?

thanks,

rj

[hairyandy]

You might be reading a bit into it maybe RJ. I think the reason the Pacifics now seem to be more "in fashion" than the Heyboers is that they've actually been available now (sometimes) from Allyn when they didn't used to be. Ken used Pacifics for a bit in the Express and Allyn's are to his spec so I think it's an effort to use original parts.

Andy

[JamesHealey]

I'm sure Moose's Toneslut Vintage OT is just as correct as the Pacific and Ken used Heyboer back in the day on his later builds.

Personally I've used Heyboer Iron and it rocks hard! much better than the generic Ceriatone stuff I've worked with before, I must admit im a fan of Heyboer!

Not tried Pactific Iron yet, and probably won't anytime soon since im working on a 5W SE Komet Clone at the moment.

[paulster]

I think the simple aspect of it is that Glen's Orphan Annie is the benchmark that most people are building to, despite Francesca really opening up the schematic to us all, unless they've had the opportunity/luxury to have exposure to other genuine Wrecks.

Annie is well-documented as having Pacific iron and Pacific are happy to sell said iron now since Ken's unfortunate passing.

Don't get me wrong - Moose/Heyboer have a fantastic transformer set and I've got a few sets of them in some great builds too, but if Annie is your benchmark and the Pacific trannies are available then what are you going to do...?

[spiralstairs]

I'd be interested in hearing stories of ppl who often stray from the "norm"

TW style trannies in a Marshall-style? Fender-style?
Hiwatt style trannies in the above? In a TW? etc

TW and Hiwatt seem to be my 2 favorite transformer sounds, but a lot does depend on the circuit of course. I'm not a fan of the typical Marshall sound, so personally replacing the OT in a marshall circuit is something I'm a fan of, but obviously something somebody shouldn't do if they're begging for a Marshall copy.

While I'm on it, I've read a lot (all?) of the posts about transformers, but one thing which is tough is when searching you read old posts which are ongoing discussions about what is right, and later a new opinion arises.

Are the toneslut transformers accurate for a rocket? Or are they just a 'these are good for Liverpool, so here is a version with a different impedence' ?
Are the stancor ones different (I saw mentioned stancor 4.3k OT which is meant for rocket) ?
As I'm not someone who searches for exact clone, but more 'sound in my head', I don't mind if the toneslut is not accurate to a rocket, but I'm curious as I haven't really seen this answered. Its just a default recommendation because they're easily available, or so it seems to me

Thx!

[redshark]

the question here would be...who has documented the results and what it does to the performance of the express amp to change from tonesluts to pacifics?, I mean using the same amp and same settings, same guitar.
That would be really interesting to read.
Amount of gain?
Touch dynamics?
clean to mean with measured dB's increase in both?
Effect on voicing?

That would help the builder that wants to make only one for personal use.

[tob]

I'd be interested in hearing stories of ppl who often stray from the "norm"

When I built my Express clone (https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=5054) I didn't know there was a "norm" so I took transformers that were available to me: a toroidal PT and the Hammond Fender Deluxe OT. I was building the amp for 6V6 tubes only so the Deluxe OT was an appopriate fit.

I'm very happy with the way the amp sounds. One day I'll build an Express with "normal" transformers so I'll be able to judge the difference. I wouldn't say I'm the most exprienced amp builder out there but I'm convinced that choosing the "right" parts for an amp is, to a large extent, ruled by psychology. Has anybody in this forum tested the same clone with Heyboer, Pacific and Hammond transformers? My feeling tells me that the difference between the three is not as large as people believe it is.

Cheers,
Tobias

[paulster]

I've had the older Heyboer OT and a Pacific in the same Express and there was a fair difference between the two. The notes I made at the time were that the cleans seemed to have more of a chime to them than they did before, and the overdriven tone felt smoother, whilst the harmonic complexity wasn't reduced.

I've also had the older Heyboer and the new (Vintage) Heyboer in the same Liverpool and there was a fair difference also, in the same vein as the Pacific swap.

However I've never compared the new Heyboer against the Pacific. I figure they'd be very similar.

[M Fowler]

At the time I was building my Liverpool and then the Rocket I had ordered a complete Ceriatone Express to jam on in the mean time.

Then Dana built an Express combo so I had to build one of those too. I totally blame Dana Hall for that.

After a few years of reading AG and Allyn saying the Pacific is key to Express tone with the 6.6k OT, I finally built a more correct Express head, the combo was my first Express build. I choose Pacific iron and was very happy with the results.

I have not built an Express with Heyboer iron so I have no comparison but if I did I would make sure I had the 6.6k OT not 5.2k.

Mark

[RJ Guitars]

You might be reading a bit into it maybe RJ. I think the reason the Pacifics now seem to be more "in fashion" than the Heyboers is that they've actually been available now (sometimes) from Allyn when they didn't used to be. Ken used Pacifics for a bit in the Express and Allyn's are to his spec so I think it's an effort to use original parts.

Andy

Thanks Andy, it's a curiosity to me since I sell quite few chassis and a few transformers. Lately everybody seems to be wanting Pacifics. I think Moose has been an excellent source for the Heyboers and Phil over at Heyboer has also treated me excellent. I'll only say good things about those guys and the Heyboer transformers.

I also want to make sure it's clear I don't think there is a fight, and either way I don't have a dog in the fight. So, the results are a curiosity and a quest to sort out the reality from the red herrings. No question I'd like to understand the many ways to get Wreck tone from the varied combinations. The other transformers I mentioned in the title are really not considered part of the clone crowd but it is worth noting that a lot of great sounding clone amps have been built by those that might tend to color outside the lines... in fact there are some great Ken Fischer amps using some other trannies.

If I have my statistics correct then one curiosity between the Heyboers and Pacifics is that in the chosen windings used for an Express they supply different voltages:

Heyboer = 300-0-300
Pacific = 280-0-280

Is there any adjustment in the dropping string between these two?

thanks,

rj

[spiralstairs]

tob - yes I had seen your thread, it seemed good. It does sound different than most typical Express/Liverpools sound, but it could be down to the clip. However I've definitely been plannint to try the Deluxe OT with 6v6's as it seems like an interesting idea.

Just to make sure no one incorrectly quote's paulster (thinking he compared the Toneslut vintage to Pacific) - the older Heyboer and the newer Heyboer are quite different (different steel and perhaps other differences). I would *think* the new heyboer and the pacific would be pretty similar, and many ppl won't see a difference but a few might say they hear something different and then be quoted on it by 50 ppl etc etc

[paulster]

Just to make sure no one incorrectly quote's paulster (thinking he compared the Toneslut vintage to Pacific) - the older Heyboer and the newer Heyboer are quite different (different steel and perhaps other differences)

That's correct. I was going to mention the different steel but was too lazy to go to Moose's site to remind myself which was which.

In an obtuse way the characteristic differences between the old and new 5K2 Heyboers and the old 6K6 Heyboer and 6K6 Pacific would suggest that both manufacturers are producing a very similar product now.

FWIW I use Heyboer almost exclusively in all my builds and Phil is excellent to deal with. I tried the Pacifics because they became available and because they'd be exactly what was in Glen's amp, which has been my sonic reference point.

I'll be back to Heyboer for whatever I build next, almost certainly.

[sst4270]

My $0.02 here...

I've used Heyboers direct, sets from Moose (Toneslut), and a set from RJ(Edcor, I think), and Hammond. One of my most recent builds (20W Express) used Fender replacements from Allen Amplification (Made by Heyboer).
Neither I nor my customers have been dissappointed yet by any of those manufacturers mentioned.

In the end... We are amp builders. We are trying to achieve a certain tone that either we hear in our heads or a customer wants to hear when he/she plays one of our rigs...

IF... We are able to build a rig (repeatedly) that has that TW TONE, bloom, womp, sustain, chime, touch sensitivity, infinitely controllable feedback, etc... Using any given set of transformers is a feat in and of itself.
The source of the transformers should not matter IF those parameters are achieved in the final product.

Great thread RJ.

Thanks for reading,

-Steve

[jaysg]

hmm...in another thread, Glen said that he's A/B'd several TW clones that weren't his, with his originals, and that the clones were decidedly brighter at the same settings. That's usually the OT, ime.

[dartanion]

I have used a bunch of different transformers in several builds and I like the Pacific OTs a bit better than the older Heyboer OTs. Of course, the Pacific OTs are single primary, so they are purpose built for either pool or exp. I have not tried Moose's new OT yet, but I am sure it's pretty darn close to the Pacific tonally. The biggest difference for me is that the Pacific OT seems to interact with the speaker and guitar in a more ready fashion. Controlled feedback was much easier and the whole amp/cab/guitar seemed more alive if that makes sense. The Pacific also seemed less strident than the older Heyboer.

I have used ceriatone, hammond, tds, heyboer, and pacific, and the heyboer and pacific are the closest to what I have heard from real wrecks and from Allyn's clones.

Now the Rocket is a different beast and the OT in the originals were the A470 Dynaco. Most of the clones that I have heard are too gainy, even some of mine have been that way too, so that OT makes a world of difference. Moose's A470 mod clone OT is the best I have tried so far, and I believe he may come out with a new revision of it with M6 lams. I think may be one of the secrets of why the originals sound the way they do (swirly and chimy cranked, not so much distorted/gainy).

Anyway, it's all different flavors. If you like it, use it.