Controlling from the guitar with a Liverpool ?

[jaysg]

I've got my LP up and running and have done a bit of tweaking. The one thing I've not found is this control where ~5 on the guitar is clean and 10 is burn, with only a minor increase in volume. With the volume knob around 11 o'clock, I have to drop to about 3 on the volume to get a sort of grainy-clean. The boost must be about 9dB when dialed up. (more than one guitar for tests, btw. log taper pots)

I've been tweaking for lower gain, fwiw. The original sound was pretty harsh on the high end. I had some help there, and thanks again for that. TS iron, all the right parts for caps, pots, misc. A single G1265...no 4-12 around here...lol.

[Zippy]

Have you tweaked the height of the pickups?

Are you running hotrod pickups?

[tubedogsmith]

Have you got linear or audio pots in your fiddle?

[jaysg]

Have you got linear or audio pots in your fiddle?

Audio taper pots and the pickup heights are good. One's a P90 guitar and the other's a Strat with EMG's.

[hairyandy]

I've noticed that my Strat with the Gilmour EMG set sounds like crap through both of my TWs (Express and Liverpool) and it doesn't react the same as my guitars with passive pickups, I assume due to the low impedance. My Liverpool reacts fine though, just like my Express, with my Les Paul.

Andy

[jaysg]

I've noticed that my Strat with the Gilmour EMG set sounds like crap through both of my TWs (Express and Liverpool) and it doesn't react the same as my guitars with passive pickups, I assume due to the low impedance.

The amp did make more sense with the p90 strat. I found a comment from Glen on this...scroll down a bit:

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=9662

Any thoughts on his comments? (Better dig up more guitars....)

[geetarpicker]

Yep, this is what I posted before:

"In my experience I got less clean headroom with a Liverpool than an Express. Perhaps a little more volume drop when going for clean on a Liverpool compared to an Express. Liverpools sound great, but in some ways the volume loss when going for cleans is a deal breaker for me."

That said quite recently I played an original Liverpool (had the old grey transformers, probably Stancors as opposed to mine which had the black trannys probably pacifics) through a pair of original Celestion Blues and it sounded killer. It also retained almost as much volume as my Express does when backed off (well all on a slightly quieter scale perhaps) and was perhaps a bit smoother than my Pacific tranny Liverpool ever was. Still the old Alnicos compress a bit when pushed but are very chimmy backed off, which does even up the clean to mean volume potential. It was set up with old Bugle boy telefunken 12ax7s, but not sure what EL84s but they were also old european tubes. I tried that amp on my own 4x12s with old G12Ms, but it truly seemed better matched to the two old blues in a vox ext. cab. For what it's worth these speakers were a pair of Ken's personal speakers.

Still, your amp probably should be better than what you descibe db loss wise. Are you using the bright switch in the full 500pf position? I've found the extra clarity helps the clean to mean potential, though you might need to address the brightness with darker or more spongy speakers (alnicos) and/or mic positions when recording. A longer guitar cable may warm it up too, perhaps try Mogami cable. Heck even a few layers of felt over the speaker will help if your cab has very thin grill cloth.

Also the guitar pots make a pretty big difference. The modern pot upgrade kits are somewhat better than stock, but nothing as good as the old Centralabs. Still, even with my old Les Paul it sometimes may require backing the guitar down into the 2-3 range for clean, and using the tone control backed off for a slight mid scoop. But that's more when the amp in on noon to 1pm on the dail. You will benefit from 50s wiring in the LP to get the mid scoop when you back off your tones, the mid scoop helps to clean up the sound.

For what it's worth I find G12M type speakers also help even the volume loss from mean to clean. Perhaps a single Scumback M75 in a 65 watt rating would be worth a try for your Liverpool. Some folks like the new Celestion Heritage 65 watter, though I've never played one. I had one of the original 65 watt Celestions 20+ years ago in a 1x12 and I could never get anything usable out of it.

It seems traditional ohm value PAFs (8k or so) with alnico mags work nicer for all this as opposed to anything hotter and/or with ceramic magnets which tend to be less clear.

GK

[jaysg]

...It also retained almost as much volume as my Express does when backed off (well all on a slightly quieter scale perhaps) and was perhaps a bit smoother than my Pacific tranny Liverpool ever was. Still the old Alnicos compress a bit when pushed but are very chimmy backed off, which does even up the clean to mean volume potential.

[clip]

Still, your amp probably should be better than what you descibe db loss wise. Are you using the bright switch in the full 500pf position?

[clip ]

Still, even with my old Les Paul it sometimes may require backing the guitar down into the 2-3 range for clean, and using the tone control backed off for a slight mid scoop.

thanks Glen! This is helpful and there are things I didn't think of. I've been using the 100pF setting...500pF is so bright. I can try it again. I have BBQ blue dog somewhere. I have the Heritage G1265 (and it's very nice in the dumble setup). I can run both. Blues are really loud, so dropping the power might not be as noticeable as other speakers. I do have 50's style wiring on my P90 strat, but not my other guitars. I'm seeing 2-3 for clean...and 3 is a bit grainy.

[geetarpicker]

One trick for the brightness. Get the volume knob up! Get it passed 12 or 1pm and the bright cap has much less effect. Then if it's too gainy you can tweak that a bit with tube choices. For what it's worth my original Express is darn muddy with the bright switch off. I've played some clones that with the treble and presence knobs OFF they were still brighter then my original is with all it's knobs on 1/2.

[jaysg]

I've got NOS 5751 and 12ay7 to try in V1. I have a Sylvania 12at7 in the PI at the moment. I have a Vox Cut on it, also.

I've played some clones that with the treble and presence knobs OFF they were still brighter then my original

Do you know what iron they had going? I have the standard set from Moose.

[jaysg]

I didn't have a lot of time to putz, but after subbing a 5751 into V1, flipping the bright switch to 500pF, and digging my hb guitar out of mothballs...definite improvement in the 'control from the guitar' method. I do have to go to the 2-3 range for clean.

It still wants to be bright, but using the tone controls doesn't detract from the tone as it seems to with other amps. I'm used to leaving the tones on 10 unless I'm trying for a woman tone, with nothing useful in between.

[geetarpicker]

You might try 50s wiring in the Les Paul. Then the tones do a slight midrange scoop in mid rotation, plus the volume is slightly reduced even futher which helps if your volumes are touchy on the low end of the scale. Full rotation on the tones will still do the woman tone thing, but your mid rotation tone settings will help clean the amp up further.

I demonstrate it here in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc3Xi6aAG80

[jaysg]

You might try 50s wiring in the Les Paul. Then the tones do a slight midrange scoop in mid rotation, plus the volume is slightly reduced even futher which helps if your volumes are touchy on the low end of the scale. Full rotation on the tones will still do the woman tone thing, but your mid rotation tone settings will help clean the amp up further.

I demonstrate it here in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc3Xi6aAG80

Glen, I thought I'd seen all of your videos...not so. Thanks! My guitar is one of the Santana Yamahas with pass caps on the volumes, modern tone control wiring...not sure what the cap values are. '59/JB duncans. My P90 strat is setup 50's style -- 2 volumes, 1 tone. I'm wondering whether I want to reverse that...it's always something.

[edit] Upon further study, the G1265 may not be such a good speaker for a Liverpool. G12H30 is smoother.