forwarded cut-and-paste re D-amp differences...

[Max]

Max; I'm fine talking and discussing the ins and outs of several designs. I really like that.
Don't you feel describing this type of amp to the outside world is a whole different thing?

What's the "outside world" in this context?

Max

For example: the Quinn amp maker communicating towards his customers?

I see. We have a misunderstanding:

Quinn communication is a part of their marketing and if it's done good or bad one can only judge (IMHO) if one knows the precise marketing goals they want to reach with their communication. And as I don't know these I don't feel able to judge the quality of their statements posted by Bob as a part of their business communication.

But marketing IMHO has nothing to do with "information". Just listen to your daughter or wife or girlfriend, when she sells you the need of the next pair of Jimmy Choos.

But: Marketing often is sold as "information". Listen to yourself when you explain the urgent need for your new Harley as the most economic and secure transportation vehicle of the western world to - yourself.

Now Bob posted the Quinn stuff not as: "Hey guys, look, come and see what great marketing stuff I've found" but as some at least interesting "information" for an amp builders community about the differences between some Dumble amps and I judged it by that and asked: "Wrong or right info"? (A question that - believe me - would never come to my mind, reading an ad in Guitar Player's announcing the newest Two Rock Amp).

So my verdict "wrong" measures the content of the Quinn statement as being posted as an "information" for a Dumble cloning community to achieve a better understanding of the differences between different generations of ODS amps.
In this regard, judged as being "information" for an amp builders forum concerning differences between ODS amps the content of the statement is "not valid", "wrong" or "false". At least one half of all the ODS before the first "Skyliners" I met (all second and third generation amps) did not have a "classic" 250K,100K,250K tonestack. Period. And one half is quiet a lot IMHO.

But of course:

In judging the Quinn statement as being good or bad "advertising" the question

"content: wrong or right?"

would be completely senseless (IMHO).

All the best

Max

[wjdunham]

All of the above discussion notwithstanding, I have often wondered if there was a better way to organize all of the information contained on this site. The phpBB hosting software search function is crap, so any time I want to have a question answered I allocate at least an hour to sift through what the search does find. It's fun some times. As long as I have the right mind set, I can get lost in the threads and learn all sorts of fun things, but I may never find the answer to my question. This results in a typical newbie post asking some question that's most likely been discussed ten times before. But if I need a quick answer to anything that a single word search won't turn up, it's most likely not gonna happen.

One thought was to download all of the threads to my local machine and have google desktop index it, then I can use a real search function. Would that be possible, and if so, would the keepers of the valuable information contained herein allow such access? I like the idea of a Wiki, but for many reasons I don't see that as too realistic. Beside, that would take the fun out of the learning process.

Some philosophy regarding the OP:
I found the OP informative if taken in context. The wonderful thing about the human brain is that it's capable of hierarchical grouping of information. So there is a place for both generalities, and specifics. The general descriptions of the various amps will let me zero in on a particular flavor, where I can then drill into the details. The only thing missing from the OP was a statement that the descriptions are generalities, and that there are many variations within each that may drastically effect the tone of a particular amp, which the reader will be left to discover on his own. Now back to amp building

Bill

[Structo]

Hey Bill,

There is a great way to search forums through Google.

When you are on the Google home page click on advanced search.
Then copy and paste the www.ampgarage.com in the "Search within a site or domain:" box.

Then type in your key words or phrases.

Works pretty well on any site or forum.

http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en

[Zippy]

Max, I see that you spend a lot of time shooting down people for their ideas and you admit to being non-technical. You may have considerable experience with seeing and hearing Dumble amps - how 'bout working from the perspective of adding positive information to the mix rather than dwelling in the negative???

I have seen you make positive contributions in the past so I know you are capable of that. I miss that aspect of you.

[Bob Simpson]

I'm just trying to organize information.

While I'm sure D-style amps are all unique, I also would think some general characteristics exist for a given group of amplifiers.

I've never played a Dumble, although I saw one in a shop once, and didn't know what it was. So trying to wrap my head around the differences is where I'm coming from.

Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks again.

Bob Simpson

[M Fowler]

I don't know what the big deal is and I am pretty sure that most people are just building their own versions of a Dumble style amp which is what we are here for in the first place.

If so many amps were custom tailored for each customer then there is no such thing as a Dumble ODS, Winterland, or SSS per say if each is different. No wonder tracking down information for the past two years has been a nightmare and I figured as such. So as long as it looks like a Dumble cabinet and faceplates, has relay switching and somewhat follows the layout then we consider it a Dumble? But does it sound like a Dumble that should be more what one should strive for.

Mark

[Max]

The only thing missing from the OP was a statement that the descriptions are generalities, and that there are many variations within each that may drastically effect the tone of a particular amp, which the reader will be left to discover on his own.

Sorry, but this is not the case:

the OP statement is, that all ODS from #001 up to around #150 (first appearances of the Skyliner mid switch amps) have the same "classic" tonestack.

This is nonsense! I never met an original Dumble ODS from around #015 up to around #70 with the "classic" tonestack like #094.

That makes for a total of 55 amps w i t h o u t the "classic" tonestack in this first "group" of the OP statement. And these 55 amps do have tonestacks that, as far as I remember, in many details are more similar to "skyliner" amps than to "classic" amps. Correct me if I remember wrong.

And do you really think it makes much sense to call these 55 "non classic" amps some small "variations" in the group of the "classic" amps?

And - sorry - to call nonsense nonsense is very "positive" IMHO.

Cheers

Max

[Max]

If so many amps were custom tailored for each customer then there is no such thing as a Dumble ODS, Winterland, or SSS per say

From my own personal experience I must say: Indeed!

All the best

Max

[jelle]

I agree that wrong information is just wrong information. Sifting through these comments and pointing out false comments is IMHO a very positive thing that contributes to the community.

I also see the need for generalizations since we are talking about many years worth of prototypes built by a very creative individual and in addition there are distinct features in certain eras of these amps. It's complicated for a lot of people.

But as already stated, a sample of 5% might be too small of a sample if there is a lot of variance in the population to actually make these generalizations.

My 2 cents.

Jelle

[Funkalicousgroove]

Ummm, what a load of BS!!! Lindley and lowell didn't play classics, and where does a High plate classic fit into this timeline? Since when is a Skyline with standard Overdrive a Low gain affair?? As far as I know and have seen first hand, High and low plate amps were contemporary, and several amps were built with values inbetween. Gregor Hilden's old dumble was a High Plate Classic, obviously not modded/updated. I worked on a Dumble Yesterday that had a SN# in the 80's and was a low plate skyline(converted to skyline in late 1980's).



The Amp garage is a good place to get some info not all your info.

[talbany]

I can definitely see where both of you guys are coming from..Explaining the different type topologys/Mods can burn some cell minutes.. On one hand you want to be accurate and let them know you know your sh&% when it comes to amps...However when it comes to customers or the public there is no simple accurate answer.. How many times have we heard this one.."Hey what makes a Dumble so special and so sought after"...
your first instinct is OK how do I explain this one to this guy or gal....Erwin is right about one thing if you get to technical with certain people it can in their eyes come off as belittling them..So you start at the doorway go around the room hit all the major design shifts and keep away from terms like pica-farad and .01 mid cap and give them enough info to be dangerous....After that hope they don't ask about what the tonal variations are...LOL!!
I think the Quinn description goes around the room just fine..For the not so technical minded

In the words of the great JOKER.. WHY SO SERIOUS!!!

Tony VVT

[super100]

Below is the original description from the Quinn website.
As you can see, what Bob Simpson received and posted has been edited, along with the product names that were removed.
The information given is on the amps he builds and
how they relate to the Dumble in terms of era and sound.
I take it to mean that this is the general tone you'll get if you buy one of his amps and request a certain version.
What do you think?


Vintage is the oldest style of dumble amp. A bit more rooted in the
raw fenderish tone. This is the amp that made his reputation. This
would be like early Lindley, Browne, Lowell George, the first
incarnation of his amps.
It can sustain like a mofo! It is a singing OD for sure.
Not much compression, very touch sensitive and dynamic....

Second the Skyglider I is a variation of the above. Dumble modded
several of his older amps with a new tone stack he was developing,
know as the skyline eq because it's output viewed on a scope resembled
a city skyline.
It is a little less Fender but still a somewhat lower gain affair. It
has the same gain as the vintage amp but the new EQ is more "signature dumble" and a little less Fender. Improved cleans from th Vintage model.
It still sustains like a mofo, has a bit better string to string definition and is a little more refined in the tone shaping.

Skyglider II is where he went next, same as above but now the
gain staging is not classic fender. It has more headroom, definition, and punch, more lively and responsive cleans, smoother OD, and a small bit of compression, very touch sensitive, lots of sweet singing tones.

Skyglider II with "Mr. H" ....Mr. H is HRM backwards. HRM stands for
"Hot Rubber Monkey". This is a second tone stack just for the OD
channel. It is more or less a Marshall style tone stack this allows tone
shaping of the OD independent of the cleans.
A real Dumble of this ilk would be called a Skyline HRM. Mine is
the Skyglider Mr. H.... How very clever of me *rolls eyes* :O)
Smooth as silk, goes from clean to mean like no ones biz. Transition
between is amazing. You can pick clean, a bit dirty, grinding, soaring, all
with your hand and all smoothly with definition. No rasp or buzz. Very refined. Gorgeous smooth tones. A little more compression that the above amps but not in a bad way. Very natural. The dynamic response is second to none. This amps feels like it breathes with you after awhile.
Smooth singing overdrive, completely dynamic, never any rasp or buzz, no IM distortion or other uglies. This is so far the most requested one and the amp I could not be without. It's smooth but never bland. This is THE amp for me...

Blue Seifu translates to Blues Master. Think raw early Fender/Marshall
tone on steroids. The tone stack is decidedly bassman territory,
however because of Dumbles many other difference it is far better IMO.
The cleans here are the best cleans I think I have ever heard, dumble
or otherwise. The cleans will sing and sustain!!! The OD is much less smooth and much less compressed than the above amps. It has some early Marshall vibe to it. Boosted cleans with this amp are to die for. The OD is a bit more raw and edgy then some of the other offerings but with boosted cleans you get the smooth side of things and with the OD you have a less polite and refined tone.
Somewhat like the first Dumbles, though different. Lots of punch, sustain and singing but not as smooth as some of the other offerings. This one can be thick and dense too. Not dark and crappy, just "meaty"...
Open clean cleans to mean and a little rude.
Big fat sick blues machine. Lots of character or soul. This amp will try and steal you girl.Like a tuxedo on a cowboy?.... It can play nice but it can still stomp in the dirt.
last is the same as above with the Mr. H post OD tone stack which gives a little more tone shaping and refining in the OD section.

[jaysg]

What do you think?

I think you've got the idea. The OP may not understand that what HAD actually was doing, was developing a flexible architecture and accumulating a large number of observations about how both small and drastic modifications to that architecture could be used to optimize the ODS amp for guitarists and their favorite guitars.

For example, sometimes someone will talk about a specific amp that really sings (for them)...this infers that they don't all neccesarily do this to the same degree. It's got to be intentional, not accidental.

[Structo]

Boy it sure is fun to talk about though, eh?

[ampdork]

Hi Folks!

My bad. I ended up posting that into my site after emailing to someone once.
I had grown tired of answering the inevitable questions about voicings and in haste had slapped it up there in an attempt to save me some grief.
Was not my intention to write a chapter of dumble history.
It was meant to give my impressions of amps I have built. I should have refrained from using artist names in this regard.
In fact using "his" name on my site was in especially bad form and it is a second offense....used the chaps name on eBay once too. Shameful even for such a pirate as myself.

It's edited now. ;O)

For the folks that are having a fit over it I suggest a deep breath, followed by another and so on and so forth.

Ohm Shanti ;O)


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