Quest for clean tone (Part 1)

[Colossal]

**I apologize in advance for the long post**
I'm hoping I can get your help with something. I've been wanting to build a stereo clean setup for a long while in the likes of Eric Johnson and Allan Holdsworth.

<b><u>The Goal</b></u>
Specifically, I am looking for very clean, clear, warm, 3D, cathedral-like clean without being too sterile, clanky, biting, or ear fatiguing. Ideally, the volume should be room filling and organic, but not deafening.

I am really blown away with the clean tone EJ gets in this video (00:00 - 1:28 ) using a pair of Twin Reverbs and I think it nicely sums up what I'm looking for tonewise:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document ... %20Effects)

I have found references that EJ either uses a pair of Deluxe Reverbs (one Blackface and one Silver face, referenced here:
http://ericjohnson.com/images/ericjohns ... 01_rig.gif)
or the Twins shown in the video above (one with JBL speakers, the other with Jensens). I also am pretty sure I read something that he moved down to the Deluxe Reverbs (with a JBL apiece) to go easier on his ears, but I can't recall where I might have read that. The video is recent too, so perhaps he's using the Twins again in the studio.

Anyway, my concern is what would be the best approach to achieve this kind of clean tone in a couple of amp builds run in stereo? I would be running a TC Electronic Stereo Chorus, MXR Dynacomp, and an analog delay pedal for extra fatness as well as a modded reverb in each amp. Musical influences include Allan Holdsworth, Alex Lifeson, Eric Johnson, David Gilmour, John Petrucci (no hope of playing like him though), Andy Summers, jazz fusion, prog and classic rock, forever and ever, amen.

<b><u>The Problem</b></u>
My uncertainty as to what to build is that I don't quite know how much headroom is needed to achieve that level of room-filling clarity. I don't need or want to completely blow the doors off the house or want to over build unnecessarily, but then I don't want to build two amps and then regret not going for something with more headroom and power.

<b><u>Possible Choices</b></u>
So, in narrowing down the choices in builds, I'm thinking:
1) Build a couple of modded Deluxe Reverbs with 2x6V6 or,
2) Build a couple of modded Deluxe Reverbs with 2x6L6 or,
3) Build a couple of modded Twin Reverbs with 4x6L6 or,
4) Build a couple of D-style amps

<b><u>Some thoughts...</b></u>
I am pretty hot on the idea of Deluxe Reverbs as the foundation as they are straightforward builds, time tested and revered, and sound great. I am however worried that 2x6V6 would not have the desired headroom to get that magical sparkling, spanky, chimey clean. I have a 6V6 Plexi and while it is a fantastic amp, there is almost no clean in it (but that's not what it's for anyway). I could go up to 2x6L6s for more power and certainly more clean headroom. As for Twin Reverbs, I have heard on more than one occasion that they can be just too bright and fatiguing yet have been a staple for many a clean rig for years in a variety of styles. I'm not sure I need all that power though. Finally, I was thinking that a couple of D-style builds might fit the bill. I have read the Dumble threads to exhaustion and am interested in those amps as well. In reading some posts from the BrownNote forum Moss said "If you build [a D-Lite] out as a BluesMaster, you'll have all the huge bouncy cleans you could ask for." The added bonus to the D-style amps is that you have overdrive and lead tones with the amp as well.

I plan on using EVM12L speakers either in a 1x12 Thiele or 2x12 closed back cab for each amp. Again, my uncertainty is on "how much" is needed, both in amp power and number of speakers. I love the EVM12L sound.

Anyway, any thoughts, ideas, and specific examples of what worked for you would be helpful and appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Andy Le Blanc]

build a couple combo's around twin trannies, but use a pair of kt88 or kt90 and
purposely load the opt with 8 ohm to get nearly the right load for the tube type.
Add your favorite pre and phase inverter, it can be a very simple amp and
still have more than enough headroom and watts. Track down a couple
JBL e120-8, 300w 12', very efficient.

[DonMoose]

For cleans there is no such thing as too much headroom ... or power. Think about bass amps - to get that big-bottomed clean, they need gobs of watts to cover the transients without clipping.

The minimum size is set more by who you're playing with and how loud they insist on being.

Right now, I have a Yamaha T50 driving a double-thiele with PV scorpions. The clean opens up nicely with a bit of 'verb, but I'm noodling in my living room; not keeping up with a drummer.

If I had to push it, I have doubts that the T50 would stay clean very long.

- The story about the Dual Showman Reverb TFL-5000D was that Duane Eddy (or was it Dick Dale?) kept going back to Fender complaining about a lack of clean headroom. Eventually Fender responded with a 135W Ultralinear output section driving a 2x15 cab loaded with hyperefficient JBL 130Ds - the Too F*ing Loud 5000D. Mr Eddy was finally happy.

The late SF Twin Reverbs are the same circuit in an open-back 2x12 cab.

Hope this helps!

[Cygnus X1]

67 Deluxe Reverb.
I've had mine forever, and can't say enough.

[Structo]

He also uses quite a bit of echo and delay.

Here is his rig from 2001.
A pair of Deluxe Reverbs.

[IMG:450:1373]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/ ... 01_rig.gif[/img]

[nickm57]

Musicman HD130 have a nice power section for cleans.

The older ones with a phase inverter and 4xEL34 would also be a platform worth looking at. Listen to the 70's live Clapton/Albert Lee tones.

I think that EJ was relying on the amp too create some warmth for the clean tones. Deluxes don't have much clean headroom.

From the pic above the clean channel is running mono(only one cab is mic'd).

Stereo is nice for the player from a stage perspective. But it's not always what your audience hears.
In the video the 2 amps are mic'd with AKG condensers, very bright with clarity. I'm not sure if you could achieve this live without allot of work and extremely good system.

[sliberty]

IMHO, the Twin Reverb is rather flat and dull sounding on lower setings, while the Deluxe reverb can sound great at moderate volume levels. This is why EJ switches off - it depends upon the room size. So, for me, I would defintly go for the Deluxe Reverb, but as others have said, the key to the whole sound is the reverb and the echo, which EJ uses tons of. Spend your time figuring out those settings, and it almost won't matter which amp you pick.

[Colossal]

Andy, DonMoose, Cygnus, Tom, Nickm57...

Thanks a lot for your replies and ideas, I appreciate them and each has given me some good perspective.

build a couple combo's around twin trannies, but use a pair of kt88 or kt90 and purposely load the opt with 8 ohm to get nearly the right load for the tube type. Add your favorite pre and phase inverter, it can be a very simple amp and still have more than enough headroom and watts. Track down a couple JBL e120-8, 300w 12', very efficient.

Andy, this is an interesting idea. One of the best stereo clean tones I heard was from a buddy with a VHT (now Fryette) 2/90/2 stereo power amp with KT88s and an Egnater preamp run into 2x12s. This was about almost 17 years ago now. Very glassy and full sounding with a bit of chorus and reverb. I believe Eric Johnson is using the JBL speaker you mention, or one close to it.

For cleans there is no such thing as too much headroom ... or power. The minimum size is set more by who you're playing with and how loud they insist on being. - The story about the Dual Showman Reverb TFL-5000D was that Duane Eddy (or was it Dick Dale?) kept going back to Fender complaining about a lack of clean headroom. Eventually Fender responded with a 135W Ultralinear output section driving a 2x15 cab loaded with hyperefficient JBL 130Ds - the Too F*ing Loud 5000D. Mr Eddy was finally happy.

DonMoose, interesting points about never having enough clean headroom. That's the part I'm trying to understand: getting "enough" but not being too f*ing loud Both Allan Holdsworth and Eric Johnson have used a pair of Twins and have fantastic clean tone (Holdsworth especially). I did find a quote by EJ that reinforces something I have read not infrequently. In discussing using smaller Fenders such as the Deluxe Reverb, Vibroverb, and Vibrolux he said..."I actually find them a little sweeter than the Twin. The Twin has a certain treble edge to it that I never could get rid of, so I started experimenting with the smaller Fenders, and I'm kind of digging that."

I like the idea of the higher wattage but most people I know that have used Twins run them at 1-3 and also said that they are just a bit too loud and bright (hahah).

67 Deluxe Reverb. I've had mine forever, and can't say enough.

That's +1 for the Deluxe Reverb!! Well, +2 since we are talking about stereo.

[EJ] also uses quite a bit of echo and delay.

Here is his rig from 2001.
A pair of Deluxe Reverbs.

Another +2. Tom, I've used that layout as a basis for this idea, that, and a lot of reading about EJ's tone (see the quote above). This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnqpOFcB ... re=related) just posted by groovtubin (Jim at OmegaAmps) features EJ playing a pair of what I believe are Deluxe Reverbs. See attached screenshot. The clean tone in the first 3 of minutes of the video is excellent.

I think that EJ was relying on the amp to create some warmth for the clean tones. Deluxes don't have much clean headroom. From the pic above the clean channel is running mono(only one cab is mic'd). Stereo is nice for the player from a stage perspective. But it's not always what your audience hears.

Hi Nick, I hear you about the stage perspective for stereo. I'm mostly interested in it for myself , basking in the stereo field. I really love that feeling of no matter where you stand in stereo, there you are. That feeling that it's right between your eyes. I am definitely after the warmth and clarity. The Deluxes are so simple and sound great. I don't need insane volume as I would be micing them in a live situation, but for practice and working in a small room with a drummer, I am just looking to get a very 3D, organic vibe a la EJ and Holdsworth. Johnson is micing the clean amps to be able to add additional delay to his pair of JBL monitors via a digital and analog delay (as well as send to the house when live). I won't be going that far, just want to get an insane chorused/delayed stereo clean tone that is loud enough to be heard but not get gritty or buried completely by a drummer.

FWIW, I have spec'd greatly oversized iron for both the PT and the OT and will be using slightly more filtering in the PS. This should bring out a lot more warmth if I go the 2x6V6 route. I would also be running slightly higher plate voltages on the 6V6s for even more punch and clarity. I did this with my 6V6 Plexi and the low end is pretty incredible via a 2x12 with greenbacks. I am running 440V on the plates with that build.

**EDIT**: the screenshot showing the Deluxe Reverb label on EJ's amp is just a guess on my part. It very well could say Twin Reverb Amp. I am guessing the amps are Deluxe Reverbs based on the "shortness" of the cabinet.

[Colossal]

IMHO, the Twin Reverb is rather flat and dull sounding on lower setings, while the Deluxe reverb can sound great at moderate volume levels. This is why EJ switches off - it depends upon the room size. So, for me, I would defintly go for the Deluxe Reverb, but as others have said, the key to the whole sound is the reverb and the echo, which EJ uses tons of. Spend your time figuring out those settings, and it almost won't matter which amp you pick.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. For fun, I got the settings off one of the Twins EJ was using in that studio interview video and they are as follows:

High Input (34K), Tremolo Channel
Bright - On
Volume - 3
Treble - 1½
Middle - 3 ½
Bass - 10
Reverb - 5
Tremolo Speed & Intensity - Off

At this point, I am leaning heavily towards modded Deluxe Reverbs. I do plan to add chorus, delay/echo, and a bit of compression to taste. Thanks again for your comments.

[Firestorm]

As long as you are going with a Fender XXX Reverb-style amp, there is a simple tweak that gives you more control the over how clean the output sounds. There is a 220K resistor in parallel with the 470K tied to the Reverb pot's wiper. Replace this resistor with a 250K pot and you can effectively add a master volume of sorts without introducing any new loads on the signal. This lets you control the volume of the reverb mix stage (which is fixed in the stock wiring) so you can turn up the main volume control without having anything get too loud.

If you do go with the Deluxe Reverb (using 6V6s), you can clean up the sound a bit by changing the 220K grid return resistors to 180K or 150K.

[Colossal]

As long as you are going with a Fender XXX Reverb-style amp, there is a simple tweak that gives you more control the over how clean the output sounds. There is a 220K resistor in parallel with the 470K tied to the Reverb pot's wiper. Replace this resistor with a 250K pot and you can effectively add a master volume of sorts without introducing any new loads on the signal. This lets you control the volume of the reverb mix stage (which is fixed in the stock wiring) so you can turn up the main volume control without having anything get too loud.

If you do go with the Deluxe Reverb (using 6V6s), you can clean up the sound a bit by changing the 220K grid return resistors to 180K or 150K.

Firestorm. These are brilliant tips, thanks very much. I am working on drawing a schematic using the AB763 standard for 2x6V6 and will add your recommendations. This is just the sort of thing I am looking for.

So, swapping the 220k for a 250K (Audio I presume...) pot will give you a Reverb "Master" of sorts? I also plan to replace the stock 100K-L Reverb pot with a 100K-Audio to give more control over the effect. I was also planning on adding a pot to replace the 1M at the entrance of the reverb circuit to dial in the amount of Dwell. I am eliminating the Normal channel and the tremolo circuit.

I will also lower the grid return resistors as you suggest. I have 100k/100k in my 6V6 Plexi. I am also adding a dual bias adjust. I have been less than happy with so-called matched sets of tubes. A little mismatch is a good thing but a lot is not so cool. I will post my proposed mods and a schematic as I complete them. Thanks again for your suggestions.

Oh, in eliminating the Normal channel there are two 220k/200k mixing resistors which mix the Normal and Tremolo channels. Should the one from the Normal channel be kept except run to ground? Or are both 220k/220k removed? See attached drawing.

Thanks,
Dave

[Firestorm]

The 250K-A pot gives you a master volume for both the reverb and the dry signal. You'll definitely need it if you remove the tremolo -- there's a 50K-RA pot in there that loads down the signal. Without it, you'll have no clean tone at all unless you attenuate somewhere else (like the 250K pot).
Since you're dumping the normal channel and the tremolo, you shouldn't need the 220K channel isolation resistors at all. Just connect the mix amp output straight to the input cap on the PI. The question is: how big should that input cap be now? You might have to experiment a bit; I'd think .02 or .01

[Colossal]

The 250K-A pot gives you a master volume for both the reverb and the dry signal. You'll definitely need it if you remove the tremolo -- there's a 50K-RA pot in there that loads down the signal. Without it, you'll have no clean tone at all unless you attenuate somewhere else (like the 250K pot).

Whoops, I see it now; good call. I was thinking that if the 220k/220k were left in, with one (from the normal channel) going to ground, that would provide attenuation. I just want to ensure that there is enough there so that both the preamp and master volume can be cranked decently high without breaking up. My 6V6 Plexi amp can get very loud, but of course it is into full distortion when doing so. I want to keep the volume with this amp but without the distortion

Since you're dumping the normal channel and the tremolo, you shouldn't need the 220K channel isolation resistors at all. Just connect the mix amp output straight to the input cap on the PI. The question is: how big should that input cap be now? You might have to experiment a bit; I'd think .02 or .01

There is an additional 0.1uF coupling cap that would go too (just below one of the 220k). I'll try 0.02uF at the entrance of the PI to start with as that seems to be a standard value. I've attached a quick drawing showing the revision.

Thanks for your continued help Firestorm.

[nickm57]

I used a 64 vibrolux reverb as my main amp for 15 years before the D clone.
Deluxes are nice, but with all BF fender there is a point where the cleans sound great. Below that level they can sound a bit thin (my experience with twins) and above they sound too loose(my experience with deluxes). But the Deluxe can sound nice for leads when cranked.
I found the Vibrolux had a touch more head room and with 2x10 a bit better spread. It depends on the level the band is playing (how loud the drummer is).
On another tack look at this stadium rig.
[img:250:314]http://www.premierguitar.com/issue/feat ... bell_3.jpg[/img]
Princeton filling a stadium.......
If you use some form of foldback.(EJ eons). Then the volume of the specific amps not an issue.

[Structo]

Tom Petty?