50w/100w HRM/NON HM Just my observation

[talbany]

I think I can safely say that we have been around the room enough times for me (VVT) to offer up an opinion.. Not that this matters but wonder if anyone else has the same sort of opinion here or if I am out to lunch..But here goes..
I understand there are many variations on the theme here as I have tried some I liked and some I didn't. As this has altered the tone and character a bit. My opinion goes a bit deeper into the feel and response as well as how each design alters my approach to playing my guitar..
My most eye opening discovery deals with the 50 w/100w.. Issue
For me (and I know I will catch some grief here) is if you truly want to experience the full impact of what Dumble amps are all about there is just no getting around the 100 watt.. The Girth, dynamic and organic qualities that the extra 2 tubes offer is key behind achieving the tone Dumbles are famous for.. There I said it...
For those grip it and rip it type players nothing wrong with 50's in this respect.. However if you are shooting for the Lary/ Robben tone 100 watt is a must...
As for HRM/Non HRM.. I do agree with Gill and think the Non HRM's are easier to manage and control... I think the simpler circuit offers a more positive connection with the amps dynamic qualities and gives me a bit more control over what I want a note to do... This is not saying the HRM is not dynamic in and of itself, just on a different level... The breakup qualities of the Non HRM to me sound more musical in voice, more saxophone like than the HRM which is a bit more aggressive and colored...especially on the top end...
For those who want a more aggressive stance and more of that Snarl Dumbles are famous for.. Then the HRM is the way to go..
For some strange reason I don't feel as relaxed playing a HRM.. Like the amp is pulling me.. But in a good way. The dynamic response is still there just not as broad as the non Hrm.. The coolest thing about the HRM to me is the aggressive tone is not harsh or buzzy and the low end stays tight and focused at reasonable volume levels.. Where the non HRM has a tendancy to go loose on you..The HRM is a little more guitar Dependant.. Bad sounding guitars sound awful but a 4K Baker. Or Vintage 335 OH YEAH!!!
Due to the aggressive nature of the HRM finding the right speaker can be a bit more challenging..I do agree the the G12H-65 Heritage's make a nice match...
As for the Blues master... I do favor the BM tone stack over the Skyliner as well as the 25K 4.7.. 100K Presence It seems to add more harmonic content and feels more open..I have not built a complete Blues master amp yet so can't offer up a personal opinion on it yet..
These opinion's are based on the amp itself (No buffered loop with a TC 2290)as well as your run of the mill off the shelf guitars..Fenders/ Gibson's Epiphones etc...
part's used were PS Caps RN65 plates Carbon film resistors.. PC board designs ,Hand cut board's ,,Steel chassis, Aluminum chassis, Off the shelf as well as Heybor's Hammond's New Sensor,Mercury Mags, Magic parts..Transformers etc. etc..etc....
These opinions ae based mainly on Overdrive channel....
Like I said these are just my observation's
Agee /Disagee...
Tony VVT

[stelligan]

This post is pushing me to finish my 100 watter..........
I agree with the HRM/non conclusions. I like both. I'll soon be able to comment regarding the 100 watt vs. 50 watt vibe. I am certain the cleans will be to die for

[dogears]

I will only do 100 watters from here out. No comparison IMO. Especially the Bluesmasters. The bigger trannies and extra voltage at the speaker tap really tame the looser and rawer output stage.

Tony we should get together sometime. Take a roadtrip up here. I have six different great sounding amps all lined up in a row!

[dave g]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, which is why I personally favor my HRMs. True, they're not as liquid-feeling, but their dynamic response is unmatched - especially BMs. For my personal playing style, no other D-style amp can surpass a 100 watt EL34 full BM.

[Tavda3172]

The bigger trannies and extra voltage and the speaker tap really tame the looser and rawer output stage.

Lets not forget doubling the transconductance of the output stage. Half the plate impedance, twice the current capability, and twice the transconductance of the 50w make a big difference in tone and feel also. It seems more muscular because it really is. A four tube amp compared to a two tube amp (of any power level) will not have to work as hard to do the same amount of work for the reasons listed above. This is why a 100 watter seems so much more effortless and muscular. This will work with an existing 50w or 25w amp as well if you simply add two more power tubes. There is no more power or volume but you do get the muscular/ effortless tone and feel and at a lower volume than the 100w.
-Kevin

[Funkalicousgroove]

None of it sounds as good as my crate blue voodoo!!!

[talbany]

Thanks everyone for the feedback...It's good to know I am not alone...I get asked a lot as to my opinion on the different Dumble topologies and how they relate to real world applications...After evaluating a players style sound and skill level having to recommend one over the other is a complicated and confusing task as the Lines intersect in so many directions.. The post's here have become a valuable tool as to people’s interpretation of a particular design.. Thanks and YES!! Scott I need to do a road trip your way and would love to check out your collection as all your clips are great to listen to!!! Maybe in the fall...
If anyone is interested my personal fave at the moment is a Non HRM w/Bluesmaster stack and PI Presence 180/150 plates 100 w with 6L's w/a few other tweaks!!! This was basically the amp clip I posted with Robbie playing!!! This may change when I build this next total BM... Thanks again
Tony VVT

[Funkalicousgroove]

I'm just glad you can find all the information necessary to further your amp business here on our little DIY amp builders forum-

People like you are preciseley why I don't post the info I have about the High Voltage circuits, alternate HRM circuits, Steel String Singer, Ripper, etc-

When I said nothing says thank you like cash I was talking about you using Gil's mods in your commercial amp- Please CONTRIBUTE something here before you take anything else-

Funk

[bluesfendermanblues]

Funk I'm sure you're a larger person than that, come on. Don't be a sad sport

[talbany]

Brandon
That is totally your choice and I respect that.. However anyone who is in this business knows that this is a niche amp.. and even many of the Pro playes out there don't fully undestand what the Dumble design is all about.. Trying to make a living doing this type of amp... only.... is like nailing jello to a tree.. The time energy that goes into research and building these amps is enormus and doubt if it will ever pay off..Seriously but I do it because I ENJOY IT!! Most of the D-Style amps I do anymore is upon request... So anyone entering this avenue wanting to make any Real money at building this type of amp GOOD LUCK!!!.. Because of this we have moved on to othe things like our tone blender model which caters to a wider audience...I appologize If I offended anyone and if my presence her bothers anyone..I will gladly leave the forum...


Tony VVT

[dogears]

No worries Tony. You guys are cool. Especially since my big stash of NOS tubes survived me leaving them in your Ampshow room!!

Why don't you toss a few cool ideas out? Also, got any pics or values from the Dumble in the Steelbender video??

Brandon
That is totally your choice and I respect that.. However anyone who is in this business knows that this is a niche amp.. and even many of the Pro playes out there don't fully undestand what the Dumble design is all about.. Trying to make a living doing this type of amp... only.... is like nailing jello to a tree.. The time energy that goes into research and building these amps is enormus and doubt if it will ever pay off..Seriously but I do it because I ENJOY IT!! Most of the D-Style amps I do anymore is upon request... So anyone entering this avenue wanting to make any Real money at building this type of amp GOOD LUCK!!!.. Because of this we have moved on to othe things like our tone blender model which caters to a wider audience...I appologize If I offended anyone and if my presence her bothers anyone..I will gladly leave the forum...


Tony VVT

[talbany]

Is There a Tone Blender Video out Have not seen it...Got a link?

The Tone Blender at the show was a prototype and sold.. So we are doing some modifications to the board to help with the build times. This is why it's not on our site at the moment... There is no layout since we had to do it on a PC board. I doubt my partners would let me post a schematic or layout however I can tell you that the clean channel is Basically our Fralin and the OD's Topology is the HRM with a few minor tweaks.. It does not cascade like the D Design and the blend combines the 2.
I will be glad to share any tweaks or mods we do to the D-Design. Or questions anyone has...

Thanks Heistel for the layout.. If someone wants it I'll be glad to post.


TONY VVT

[bnwitt]

Interesting comments. I can honestly say I haven't sold one single amplifier based on any design revealed on this forum. I've built an Asteroid, an Express, a Liverpool, an airbrake and am still working on a D amp. All of these are still in my possession and will remain so as permanent residents of my studio amp cabinet. Everything I sell is either Fender based, Marshall based or my own design, and they are usually tweaked and upgraded beyond recognition. The 100 watt D amps are modded twins remember?

I can also say that I have no problem if anyone in here sells a thousand of any particular model that has been dissected in this forum without sending cash to anyone who has passed on the knowledge as that is what the tube community is all about. I'm sure any mod you find has been used in a tube amp circuit somewhere before so they are not original intellectual property.

As far as I'm concerned, it is build quality and tweaking for an individual player that sells an amp like these along with tireless marketing. This is especially true with the one trick tonal ponies in this forum compared to what most modern buyers are looking for which is an amp that does everything. Take one look at Allyn's or Funk's builds and you will be blown away by build quality but the sale comes from the buyer plugging in and liking the tone.

There is no way to corner this little market or even make a great living in it. There are two many bigass manufacturers, chinese plants and cheapass customers in the pool. Hoarding information in an attempt to beat back the competition is just silly. Especially when the info is from someone elses work.

[talbany]

In Light of the recent postings it's become obvious that my being here has prevented valuable information from being posted...As this was never my intent. And apologize if I made some here feel uncomfortable as I don't want me or my company's name tarnished I have decided to exit the forum.. I wish to thank everyone including Brandon for all there help and valuable info and wish great pleasure on your amp builds.. If anyone wishes my help you can contact me @ talbany@vvtamps.com


Tony VVT

[heisthl]

I'm just glad you can find all the information necessary to further your amp business here on our little DIY amp builders forum-

People like you are preciseley why I don't post the info I have about the High Voltage circuits, alternate HRM circuits, Steel String Singer, Ripper, etc-

When I said nothing says thank you like cash I was talking about you using Gil's mods in your commercial amp- Please CONTRIBUTE something here before you take anything else-

Funk

Not to HiJack this thread but I freely admit that this site is the reason I build amps. My amp building had stagnated after I sold my repair business in '92 and other than a couple of "Super Champ" type builds I was doing nothing ampwise until I stumbled on this site one day. The influence and passion of people like yourself inspired me to start building again. That said, as much as I love the Dumble style amps, the majority of amps that I sell are not D style clones although the OverDrive section is a nice option to add to any platform. Anything I can do to payback in kind to you or anyone else (Gil, Dogears,etc.) is yours for the asking.