Are carbon films worth the trouble?

General discussion area for tube amps.

Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal

Post Reply
User avatar
bepone
Posts: 1669
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:22 pm
Location: Croatia
Contact:

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by bepone »

also, non-magnetic characteristic of carbon comp makes the superior. for which purpose?

lets hear again about them, that are the worst of all resistors and nothing new :mrgreen:
neskor
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:53 pm

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by neskor »

and then you plug your guitar to Fender Twin from '64 populated with CC and you are in heaven :D
WhopperPlate
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by WhopperPlate »

Here’s the thing with mf s CF vs Cc vs ww vs ect ect …

If you can build an entire amp with metal film resistors and not hear a difference between cf … let alone between brands of resistors …well I wouldn’t want you building me an amplifier that’s for sure …I have never understood why anyone would wave that banner

People can argue back and forth whether they can measure it on a scope or not… what do your ears hear? Everyone acts like they need the indisputable scientific proof in front of their faces on paper with a scholastic seal of approval before they will believe their own two ears .

Me? I have essentially rebuilt entire amps from one resistor brand to the next several times over. Growing up as a young performing musician with an electronic shop and plenty of spare time to tinker away I chased the tone dragon for years on end . I have built turret boards with components pressure fitted tight enough so I could simply swap components within seconds . Just like any activity ,when you accumulate enough listening experience you will begin to hear and feel what others can’t (or won’t lol) .

Like many others on the forum , I will literally nitpick on a single component in a single position , until the right balance of value and composition are obtained to fine tune the response just right. People go on and on about someone like Dumble and their particularity when it came to part selection and dialing in an amplifier , or good ol Ken fisher who preferred red wire irradiated wire or whatever , and we clearly hear the results of their choices as something worth a small fortune , but somehow we can’t take them seriously with they claim to hear . Seems kinda arrogant .

I digress . As implied already:
neskor wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:16 am and then you plug your guitar to Fender Twin from '64 populated with CC and you are in heaven :D
last time I checked the majority of amps everyone knows, loves, and copies as the go to standard for guitar tone are essentially amps built around 50 years ago with “inferior parts” …

Marshall circuitry utilizing piher vs iskra cf alone is enough to create two camps . Not that I recommend it , but like I already said , go rip out all those old inferior parts from that vintage power supply with a bunch of modern cement wirewound whatever and it’s a different ballgame . If you can do that and not feel or hear a difference…i have said enough
Charlie
R.G.
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by R.G. »

martin manning wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:50 am I looked for this effect, but couldn't find it: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 43#p444443
Like many of the myths involving magic components (and unicorns) the tone enhancement properties of CC resistors can be very hard to find. At one point I would have flatly said it's not possible. But I went off on my own hunt for why people would swear CCs are better, and this is the only thing I've ever found. I also have tried to find the effect, and failed. I listed it because it's at least theoretically possible.

I'm not terribly surprised that you didn't find it. I had to go looking for why CCs could possibly cause a tone difference. The voltage coefficient of resistance is the only thing I ever found that could cause it. It's a subtle effect, and I suspect, but can't prove, that it's bound up in the properties of the carbon particles and the binder material, as well as probably the temperature, phase of the moon, and distance to the goalposts. But it does exist, some times, some places, as resistor manufacturers do list VCR on CC data sheets.
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
Mark Twain
User avatar
pompeiisneaks
Site Admin
Posts: 4244
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:36 pm
Location: Washington State, USA
Contact:

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by pompeiisneaks »

WhopperPlate wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:03 pm Here’s the thing with mf s CF vs Cc vs ww vs ect ect …

If you can build an entire amp with metal film resistors and not hear a difference between cf … let alone between brands of resistors …well I wouldn’t want you building me an amplifier that’s for sure …I have never understood why anyone would wave that banner

People can argue back and forth whether they can measure it on a scope or not… what do your ears hear? Everyone acts like they need the indisputable scientific proof in front of their faces on paper with a scholastic seal of approval before they will believe their own two ears .

Me? I have essentially rebuilt entire amps from one resistor brand to the next several times over. Growing up as a young performing musician with an electronic shop and plenty of spare time to tinker away I chased the tone dragon for years on end . I have built turret boards with components pressure fitted tight enough so I could simply swap components within seconds . Just like any activity ,when you accumulate enough listening experience you will begin to hear and feel what others can’t (or won’t lol) .

Like many others on the forum , I will literally nitpick on a single component in a single position , until the right balance of value and composition are obtained to fine tune the response just right. People go on and on about someone like Dumble and their particularity when it came to part selection and dialing in an amplifier , or good ol Ken fisher who preferred red wire irradiated wire or whatever , and we clearly hear the results of their choices as something worth a small fortune , but somehow we can’t take them seriously with they claim to hear . Seems kinda arrogant .

I digress . As implied already:
neskor wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:16 am and then you plug your guitar to Fender Twin from '64 populated with CC and you are in heaven :D
last time I checked the majority of amps everyone knows, loves, and copies as the go to standard for guitar tone are essentially amps built around 50 years ago with “inferior parts” …

Marshall circuitry utilizing piher vs iskra cf alone is enough to create two camps . Not that I recommend it , but like I already said , go rip out all those old inferior parts from that vintage power supply with a bunch of modern cement wirewound whatever and it’s a different ballgame . If you can do that and not feel or hear a difference…i have said enough
I have two possible theories on this, possibly both are true, but basically most people can 'not' hear what many that speak about this are talking about. The reason is what falls into the two theories:

1. Some people can hear significantly better than the vast majority of the population. I believe this is true and could account for a small part of this. Scientifically it's been proven some people's hearing is way better. My nephew had to get hearing aids to do the opposite of what hearing aids do... mute sounds. Normal everyday sounds hurt his ears and gave him headaches. My wife's hearing is probably 10 times better than mine, but that's partly due to me being in the infantry and in a war in Iraq so I've lost a LOT :D

2. People often want to believe something, and convince themselves it is true. Called confirmation bias. An example I find for this are audiophile cables. They make gold plated, cryogenically treated, directional cables (i.e. electrons flow more 'musically' the way they point out on the damn things). But someone once did a double blind test ( and then someone more recently repeated this and was successful at reproving this) that they couldn't tell the difference in the audio sound between these types of horrifically expensive speaker cables and metal coat hangars as the speaker connects...

I feel more often than not the chance someone falls into 1 is pretty small. I'm not saying you're not one of them. You probably are.

Also, I could be 100% wrong, but sadly like R.G. was saying this is pretty hard to prove, because some of this is subjective, as well as difficult to prove.

The endless debate on this kind of thing is never going to end though.

I do remember reading in pretty heavy detail in merlin's book that he mentioned that carbon films have been proven to create some of the harmonics that guitar amps 'like' and metal film can feel 'sterile' and too clean for many... I don't know that I agree, but I have stuck mostly to carbon films myself on purpose due to the data he had there.

OTOH I've only built about 10 or 11 amps now, and so my experience level is pretty new too. AND I'm sure I am not someone that can validate my own sense on this sometimes due to my hearing loss. :P

~Phil
tUber Nerd!
User avatar
dorrisant
Posts: 2790
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:27 pm
Location: Somewhere between a river and a cornfield
Contact:

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by dorrisant »

I have done a CC to CF swap on a Bassman AB165...

First I changed the power amp circuit... Got rid of the 220ks from plate to grid, upped the PI output caps with pulls from other Fenders (to keep the same type of cap and not change anything sonically), etc.. The screens were changed to wirewound 5Ws and the input grids of the power tubes were changed to MF. I removed the ceramics across the plates in the preamp. I also changed all of the electrolytics. Basically I got the amp sounding it's best with the CCs. Did some playing with it and was happy with that. Then I went through the entire board changing all CCs to 1W CFs. The input 68ks and 1Ms were left as is.

There was a big difference in the tone. There was also a difference in feel and it wasn't subtle. The bass felt much tighter with the CFs. There was a more pronounced piano-like tone to the amp that was duller with the CCs. I was not the only one to think this either. One of the guys that played it both ways bought the amp on the spot for this very reason. He uses the amp playing for his church, very cleanly. There are other people who have tried to buy it from him after they plugged in and cranked the amp. Several have said it is the best Bassman they have ever heard and several of those have offered very good money for the amp.

This doesn't tell me what the CFs might change as far as individual positions in the circuit, but overall, it was a not so subtle change in tone and particularly the feel.

I feel like I have heard enough amps to be a fair judge of the tone and I WILL most definitely do this to another AB165 again. This time, I WILL NOT sell it. That's how good it was!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned" - Enzo
User avatar
bepone
Posts: 1669
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:22 pm
Location: Croatia
Contact:

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by bepone »

I'm using all the components, from cheapest ones until the most expensive like several hundreads for one capacitor.. Sometimes i put interstage Hashimoto of 500$ in place of one capacitor..

I dont care what is there, goal is to make tonal balance listenable to me .. and it is starting with output transformer like a base and the build all the rest around..

So mega tweaking all the time, but i see most of folks do opposite, making turret construction so hard that you cant remove any component after. And you need to. :)
R.G.
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by R.G. »

WhopperPlate wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:03 pm Here’s the thing with mf s CF vs Cc vs ww vs ect ect …
You might be interested in reading about logical fallacies. Here’s a good list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
There are others that are probably explained in simpler language, as well.
In the following, I’m not criticizing you personally, just pointing out some issues and historical perspective with the conclusions. I completely believe that you hear what you say you hear. I just think that it’s not so easy to generalize that to everyone and all amps and components. So as youtubers say, let's get started.
Here’s the thing with mf s CF vs Cc vs ww vs ect ect …
If you can build an entire amp with metal film resistors and not hear a difference between cf … let alone between brands of resistors …well I wouldn’t want you building me an amplifier that’s for sure …I have never understood why anyone would wave that banner
I don’t know if you’re familiar with it or not, but you’re presenting one variation of the “Golden Ears” theory from the heyday of the super-hi-fi era. That theory said that (1) there are obviously detectable differences in the tone of certain components and that (2) anyone questioning this was clearly deficient in hearing, and possibly intelligence.
Open minded techies will acknowledge that there are things that the instruments can't detect yet, so chasing ever-more-subtle component differences could always be denied by the Golden-Ears crowd. In fact, some of the Golden-Ears arguments involved that components would be changed by tampering with them in any way, eventually down to the ...intent... to test them. :shock:
The Golden Ears theory was discredited when the technicians quit testing components and started testing the owners of Golden Ears. In tests designed to remove all possible hints of swapped versus not swapped components, possessors of Golden Ears did >worse< than random guessing would predict. After a few of these tests being made public, the hifi Golden Ears started refusing to participate in any more of them because they just embarassed themselves.
Hearing happens in the human mind, not in the ear, and that the human mind makes things up to suit what it expects. Eyewitness (and ear-witness) testimony is notoriously unreliable.
I completely agree that you hear differences. You absolutely do, and this reinforces your faith every time you test yourself or deal with anyone who holds a similar faith. But can you make the same determination purely by ear? With no pre-knowledge of the parts being changed/not-changed during the test? If it’s so obviously hear-able, it stands to reason that it should be detectable ONLY by ear, right?
This seems to me to be a variant of the Psychologist’s Fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologist%27s_fallacy
People can argue back and forth whether they can measure it on a scope or not… what do your ears hear?
Hmmm. That’s kind of a special case of people being able to argue back and forth about >anything< at all, real or not. Best example? The internet.
Further, a trained techie would tell you that an oscilloscope is a remarkably poor instrument for measuring distortion. It’s the wrong instrument. People who have been burned by what they thought they heard get really interested in instrumentation. If a technical device can measure an effect reliably, you can be pretty sure it’s real. If it’s not measurable, it may or may not be real, and you have only the human mind’s ability to make up explanations of patterns, real or imagined. See “GoldenEars”, above.
Everyone acts like they need the indisputable scientific proof in front of their faces on paper with a scholastic seal of approval before they will believe their own two ears.
Everyone? Really? Isn’t this an example of Faulty Generalization? (see logical fallacies link)
Me? I have essentially rebuilt entire amps from one resistor brand to the next several times over. Growing up as a young performing musician with an electronic shop and plenty of spare time to tinker away I chased the tone dragon for years on end . I have built turret boards with components pressure fitted tight enough so I could simply swap components within seconds . Just like any activity ,when you accumulate enough listening experience you will begin to hear and feel what others can’t (or won’t lol) .
The problem with that is that each time you select a part, or swap it, you know by doing that you have changed something. There is an inherent bias in humans to think that by changing something in the quest of improving it that they actually have improved it. I have chased – and measured – the tone dragon for decades, as well as listening to live performances, recorded music, and amps under test for quite some time as well. I mixed in technical testing designed to find where the dragon’s claws gripped. I can tell you with some personal experience and with the benefit of some formal testing, not everyone hears the same thing.
Like many others on the forum , I will literally nitpick on a single component in a single position , until the right balance of value and composition are obtained to fine tune the response just right. People go on and on about someone like Dumble and their particularity when it came to part selection and dialing in an amplifier , or good ol Ken fisher who preferred red wire irradiated wire or whatever , and we clearly hear the results of their choices as something worth a small fortune , but somehow we can’t take them seriously with they claim to hear . Seems kinda arrogant .
So, what you’re saying is that anyone who has a different opinion is kinda arrogant?
I digress . As implied already:
neskor wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:16 am and then you plug your guitar to Fender Twin from '64 populated with CC and you are in heaven
last time I checked the majority of amps everyone knows, loves, and copies as the go to standard for guitar tone are essentially amps built around 50 years ago with “inferior parts” …
See ad hominem, appeal to authority, appeal to consequences, argumentum ad pupulum, and quite likely that Texas sharpshooter fallacy.
Marshall circuitry utilizing piher vs iskra cf alone is enough to create two camps . Not that I recommend it , but like I already said , go rip out all those old inferior parts from that vintage power supply with a bunch of modern cement wirewound whatever and it’s a different ballgame .
I would be very, very interested in the results of a well designed listening test where you or someone else tried to detect a cement resistor swap for older parts in a vintage power supply, let alone if you could detect a positive difference, a negative difference, or no difference in amp sound when you do not see what is being swapped or not. It is >possible< that you could do this perfectly. But I’ve seen the results of tests where reputed Golden Ears were embarassed by their performance on such tests on parts in the signal chain, let alone the power supply.
If you can do that and not feel or hear a difference…i have said enough
… and a final ad hominem.
My bottom line on this is that if believing in magic parts makes you happy with your amp,great! Do it and be happy. But be aware that the opinions of others may not be as clear cut as yours and may be based on other tests.
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
Mark Twain
WhopperPlate
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by WhopperPlate »

pompeiisneaks wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:38 pm
1. Some people can hear significantly better than the vast majority of the population. I believe this is true and could account for a small part of this. Scientifically it's been proven some people's hearing is way better. My nephew had to get hearing aids to do the opposite of what hearing aids do... mute sounds. Normal everyday sounds hurt his ears and gave him headaches. My wife's hearing is probably 10 times better than mine, but that's partly due to me being in the infantry and in a war in Iraq so I've lost a LOT :D
Thank you for your service. :!:

That’s interesting about your nephew ! I think of how a bump on the head can cause higher sensitivity to light and sound stimuli and how abrasive they can feel .

My nephew is similar, my brothers family has an electronic dog whistle and they will forget that he can hear it clear as day and point it anywhere near his ear and he yells out angrily . I too can hear it, but not like that .
pompeiisneaks wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:38 pm
2. People often want to believe something, and convince themselves it is true. Called confirmation bias. An example I find for this are audiophile cables. They make gold plated, cryogenically treated, directional cables (i.e. electrons flow more 'musically' the way they point out on the damn things). But someone once did a double blind test ( and then someone more recently repeated this and was successful at reproving this) that they couldn't tell the difference in the audio sound between these types of horrifically expensive speaker cables and metal coat hangars as the speaker connects...
I would be a fool to disregard this effect. Cmon, who isnt guilty of turning a knob that did nothing and heard something ? While I don’t want to go into any specific subject matter which I hold no experience with, I will say I am not quick to disregard an effect , and ironically what the HIFI guys hear as amazing ime is less spectacular then they themselves imagine.
pompeiisneaks wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:38 pm
I feel more often than not the chance someone falls into 1 is pretty small. I'm not saying you're not one of them. You probably are.

Also, I could be 100% wrong, but sadly like R.G. was saying this is pretty hard to prove, because some of this is subjective, as well as difficult to prove.
I wouldn’t hold it against you if told me I was full of myself and BS :wink:

Honestly , I don’t know why I try to convince anyone of anything about what I hear vs what they read, people either hear it or they don’t. I am okay with it.
pompeiisneaks wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:38 pm
I do remember reading in pretty heavy detail in merlin's book that he mentioned that carbon films have been proven to create some of the harmonics that guitar amps 'like' and metal film can feel 'sterile' and too clean for many... I don't know that I agree, but I have stuck mostly to carbon films myself on purpose due to the data he had there.
I recall that as well. I wouldn’t be quick to discount Merlin’s testimonials .

Fun experiment: find a bunch of resistors of the same value from as makes and models as possible . Rig yourself up some way to alligator clip them into the positive off your guitar . Play each one. Listen .Nerd out. Take notes. Cross reference your experience with the collective experience shared by the greats . Try not to fall for confirmation bias lol

Whereas this obviously isn’t going to necessarily tell you how these components will behave exactly within a circuit , there is definitely some translation occurring that will help identify the inevitable outcome.

Obviously the next step is to apply this within the amplifier in key positions like a tonestack or a nfb resistor . Now I feel like I should be preaching to the choir….
Charlie
WhopperPlate
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by WhopperPlate »

R.G. wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:34 pm
Everyone? Really? Isn’t this an example of Faulty Generalization? (see logical fallacies link)
This is called hyperbole :wink:
R.G. wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:34 pm
So, what you’re saying is that anyone who has a different opinion is kinda arrogant?
To dismiss everyone’s opinion as negligible in spite of their renowned experience and reputation is potentially pretty arrogant . Naive even.
R.G. wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:34 pm
I don’t know if you’re familiar with it or not, but you’re presenting one variation of the “Golden Ears” theory from the heyday of the super-hi-fi era. That theory said that (1) there are obviously detectable differences in the tone of certain components and that (2) anyone questioning this was clearly deficient in hearing, and possibly intelligence.
Open minded techies will acknowledge that there are things that the instruments can't detect yet, so chasing ever-more-subtle component differences could always be denied by the Golden-Ears crowd. In fact, some of the Golden-Ears arguments involved that components would be changed by tampering with them in any way, eventually down to the ...intent... to test them. :shock:
The Golden Ears theory was discredited when the technicians quit testing components and started testing the owners of Golden Ears. In tests designed to remove all possible hints of swapped versus not swapped components, possessors of Golden Ears did >worse< than random guessing would predict. After a few of these tests being made public, the hifi Golden Ears started refusing to participate in any more of them because they just embarassed themselves.
Hearing happens in the human mind, not in the ear, and that the human mind makes things up to suit what it expects. Eyewitness (and ear-witness) testimony is notoriously unreliable.
I completely agree that you hear differences. You absolutely do, and this reinforces your faith every time you test yourself or deal with anyone who holds a similar faith. But can you make the same determination purely by ear? With no pre-knowledge of the parts being changed/not-changed during the test? If it’s so obviously hear-able, it stands to reason that it should be detectable ONLY by ear, right?
This seems to me to be a variant of the Psychologist’s Fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologist%27s_fallacy

ears.
Whereas I completely agree about the subjective nature of hearing (as I just addressed this in my last reply before I saw your response), I often see this argument to unfairly dismiss the majority of cork sniffing entirely , obviously including resistor preference . There’s only so many times you can swap the same two resistors back and forth and not begin to hear more than the next . It’s like a musician with ear training . Most people can’t extrapolate the amount of data from music as say a classically trained virtuoso concert violinist , and I don’t argue whether or not I prefer the sound of a Stradivarius. They just sound good. I am not someone who’s going to say you can’t build a modern world class violin… but like iskra and Daly caps, old growth Italian spruce ain’t around much .

R.G. wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:34 pm
The problem with that is that each time you select a part, or swap it, you know by doing that you have changed something. There is an inherent bias in humans to think that by changing something in the quest of improving it that they actually have improved it. I have chased – and measured – the tone dragon for decades, as well as listening to live performances, recorded music, and amps under test for quite some time as well. I mixed in technical testing designed to find where the dragon’s claws gripped. I can tell you with some personal experience and with the benefit of some formal testing, not everyone hears the same thing.
My response got cut off . Next reply
Charlie
WhopperPlate
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by WhopperPlate »

R.G. wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:34 pm
The problem with that is that each time you select a part, or swap it, you know by doing that you have changed something. There is an inherent bias in humans to think that by changing something in the quest of improving it that they actually have improved it. I have chased – and measured – the tone dragon for decades, as well as listening to live performances, recorded music, and amps under test for quite some time as well. I mixed in technical testing designed to find where the dragon’s claws gripped. I can tell you with some personal experience and with the benefit of some formal testing, not everyone hears the same thing.
Personally, components improving the tone within a particular component arrangement definitely is about 1 in 5 cases . I dislike most of what I have tried in any given context . An iskra or a piher magic unobtsnium part mixed in more often than not sounds bad to myself . It’s the sun if the parts

Listen I get it, HIFI guys and their fake connoisseur ears milk sheep for their money and have ruined it for everyone . I grew up in professional sound company making fun of them as sport . However I ain’t going to use them as a reference point to dismiss my own observations .

I too have been fortunate to work steadily under the wings of very talented and respected soundengineers, my main mentor having run the main board with everyone from fleetwood mac Joan Baez kebmo and Greg Rollie. He was legendary on his drum mix , even having a mixing spotlight on Huey Lewis and the news. I got to see a lot of amazing acts and hear what the extremes of good and bad can sound like. Good times, ah the memories

R.G. wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:34 pm
I would be very, very interested in the results of a well designed listening test where you or someone else tried to detect a cement resistor swap for older parts in a vintage power supply, let alone if you could detect a positive difference, a negative difference, or no difference in amp sound when you do not see what is being swapped or not. It is >possible< that you could do this perfectly. But I’ve seen the results of tests where reputed Golden Ears were embarassed by their performance on such tests on parts in the signal chain, let alone the power supply.

I would be glad to have the opportunity to prove how full of crap I am !lol in fact I was thinking when I return from my trip out of town and get back to my shop I would make a video swapping resistors in my recent build to give you all some extra ammunition to tear me down with ! Should be fun to hear and debate !

Cement resistors on the power tube screens are about the easiest easy for me to hear…next to f&t caps

Recently a great guitar player friend of mine was showing off his custom made amp by blah blah amplification , and I heard a harshness in the video clips . Sounded like what I hear in f&t caps . I told him so and he confirmed that that’s what was in the amp . He agreed it was harsh and asked me to change them . Happy customer . Call it confirmation bias if you must. Call it psychological. I just think it sounds better now and want to keep the amp now it sounds as good as it does . I wouldn’t have before…

R.G. wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:34 pm
… and a final ad hominem.
My bottom line on this is that if believing in magic parts makes you happy with your amp,great! Do it and be happy. But be aware that the opinions of others may not be as clear cut as yours and may be based on other tests.
I am aware ! If you are on the internet and aren’t aware … :wink:
Charlie
User avatar
dorrisant
Posts: 2790
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:27 pm
Location: Somewhere between a river and a cornfield
Contact:

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by dorrisant »

WhopperPlate wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:23 pm Cement resistors on the power tube screens are about the easiest easy for me to hear…next to f&t caps
What do you use instead that sounds less harsh. Not doubting you. I wanna hear for myself.

Also, in this debate, can we really consider the results of different component types in hi-fi to the abusive conditions of a guitar amp? We are cranking gain up past a hi-fi level and I'm almost certain this could make audible differences.
Last edited by dorrisant on Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned" - Enzo
R.G.
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by R.G. »

WhopperPlate wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:23 pm I would be glad to have the opportunity to prove how full of crap I am !lol in fact I was thinking when I return from my trip out of town and get back to my shop I would make a video swapping resistors in my recent build to give you all some extra ammunition to tear me down with ! Should be fun to hear and debate !
No tearing down intended, just objectivity. When you do this, remember that it's not possible for one person to do a really objective test of modifications they're making.
This is the whole point of a double blind test. The person answering can have no hints of what, if anything, has been changed.

For reference on that issue, you might like to read about Clever Hans, the horse. Hans the horse amazed people by being able to correctly answer questions in math by clopping his hoof on the ground the right number of times.
Scientists were amazed - until a few of them noticed that Hans could not give correct answers if his owner wasn't nearby, and even then Hans could not not correctly answer questions that his owner could not correctly answer. Hans was pawing the ground until his owner, quite unknowingly, gave some indication of the right answer.

The owner had trained Hans in math, completely unaware that it was his own actions that told Hans when to quit pawing.

We are all oblivious to our own built in biases. They can be subtle beyond belief. Making a video of yourself or someone else changing parts in the pursuit of better or worse sound is substantially impossible to do fairly. There are whole college courses in "design of experiments" specifically intended to do testing while excluding unconscious biases.

A fairer and more believable test might be something like having a fixed camera (not a person keeping track to eliminate them unknowingly providing information) record your answers to "is it better, worse, or the same?" upon hearing the same musical sample played through the same amp with either one component changed, or not changed at all, at regular intervals in a setup where you can't see or hear the parts being swapped or not, and where the parties doing the swaps, nor tell actual from no-change by the time taken, the smell of the soldering iron(s) or the dimming of the lights, that kind of thing.

This is a test of the ability of the person claiming to perceive differences to do so accurately and reliability. If the differences are as obvious as the magic-parts people hold, getting 100% correct answers should be easy. If this kind of test does not prove that the person can reliably and accurately demonstrate their discrimination, there's really very little reason to go down the path of ever-more-finely testing components to find out what is actually, really, and provably different about the components. So while such a video might be good for getting clicks on youtube, it's not much good for anything else. If the person's perception is accurate and repeatable, there is then something to look for. With your long experience with pro audio/sound people and making fun of the Golden Ears, you should be familiar with the concept.

This is the kind of thing that broke the Golden Ear mythos. Frankly, any video showing a testing setup less rigorous about excluding conscious and unconscious biases doesn't prove anything, and only serves as fuel for the yes-they-do-no-they-don't fires without proving or disproving anything. I suggest that you not bother with videoing something less rigorous. But I really, really would like to see the video of a fair, double-blind test.
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
Mark Twain
WhopperPlate
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by WhopperPlate »

Sorry for the messy quote edits , sometimes the phone is hard to navigate
Charlie
WhopperPlate
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Are carbon films worth the trouble?

Post by WhopperPlate »

R.G. wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:11 pm
WhopperPlate wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:23 pm I would be glad to have the opportunity to prove how full of crap I am !lol in fact I was thinking when I return from my trip out of town and get back to my shop I would make a video swapping resistors in my recent build to give you all some extra ammunition to tear me down with ! Should be fun to hear and debate !
No tearing down intended, just objectivity. When you do this, remember that it's not possible for one person to do a really objective test of modifications they're making.
This is the whole point of a double blind test. The person answering can have no hints of what, if anything, has been changed.

For reference on that issue, you might like to read about Clever Hans, the horse. Hans the horse amazed people by being able to correctly answer questions in math by clopping his hoof on the ground the right number of times.
Scientists were amazed - until a few of them noticed that Hans could not give correct answers if his owner wasn't nearby, and even then Hans could not not correctly answer questions that his owner could not correctly answer. Hans was pawing the ground until his owner, quite unknowingly, gave some indication of the right answer.

The owner had trained Hans in math, completely unaware that it was his own actions that told Hans when to quit pawing.

We are all oblivious to our own built in biases. They can be subtle beyond belief. Making a video of yourself or someone else changing parts in the pursuit of better or worse sound is substantially impossible to do fairly. There are whole college courses in "design of experiments" specifically intended to do testing while excluding unconscious biases.

A fairer and more believable test might be something like having a fixed camera (not a person keeping track to eliminate them unknowingly providing information) record your answers to "is it better, worse, or the same?" upon hearing the same musical sample played through the same amp with either one component changed, or not changed at all, at regular intervals in a setup where you can't see or hear the parts being swapped or not, and where the parties doing the swaps, nor tell actual from no-change by the time taken, the smell of the soldering iron(s) or the dimming of the lights, that kind of thing.

This is a test of the ability of the person claiming to perceive differences to do so accurately and reliability. If the differences are as obvious as the magic-parts people hold, getting 100% correct answers should be easy. If this kind of test does not prove that the person can reliably and accurately demonstrate their discrimination, there's really very little reason to go down the path of ever-more-finely testing components to find out what is actually, really, and provably different about the components. So while such a video might be good for getting clicks on youtube, it's not much good for anything else. If the person's perception is accurate and repeatable, there is then something to look for. With your long experience with pro audio/sound people and making fun of the Golden Ears, you should be familiar with the concept.

This is the kind of thing that broke the Golden Ear mythos. Frankly, any video showing a testing setup less rigorous about excluding conscious and unconscious biases doesn't prove anything, and only serves as fuel for the yes-they-do-no-they-don't fires without proving or disproving anything. I suggest that you not bother with videoing something less rigorous. But I really, really would like to see the video of a fair, double-blind test.
Obviously I wouldn’t be testing myself , as you already indicated is pointless to any degree . What I would do is simply alligator clip in close tolerance resistors of different composition and brand within a single position and record them . Nothing fancy . What do you hear ? That’s it . I can tell you what I hear and feel and you can reference that against the limited data coming from the audio clip . Nothing designed to write your college thesis around, just something to give us all something to become more or less stubborn in our confirmation bias :)
Charlie
Post Reply