Clone vs real deal... mp3?

[UR12]

Glen

Real or clone, you got yourself 3 fine amps. They all sound awesome by anyone's standards and I don't know any TW fan that wouldn't give his eye teeth for either of them. I know how long and hard you worked to source the right parts and man what a payoff. It's hard to beat something you created with your own two hands out of a box full of parts.

I started to vote a couple of days ago and then thought to myself. They were so close it really didn't matter.

[Buschman]

I understand about the bright switch. I have the 100 & 500pf option. The 100 stays on most of the time. 500 comes on for Wind cries Mary & Little wing. The deal with mine is I am playing on 3 or so. It make the switch have too much effect. I use a 330pf on my D'lite & like it a bunch-would probably work well for your Express & mine.
Gigged with my Express today at the Harley shop. I used an old Gibson es125 I have personally had since I was 8 years old(42years). Talk about fun-Express + hollow body with p90s =

Nice playing Glen!

[geetarpicker]

Wow...all it needed was experimenting with the PI "fizz" cap.

Apparently my benchmark, my original '89 Express is pretty darn dark. So after trying a bunch of different caps in the clones PI circuit it came down to a 250pf. At that point the amp is a tiny bit darker (maybe) than my original which is the way I'd prefer it anyway especially with newer speakers and such. The cool thing is I can't detect any negative side effects, it just warms it up and rounds off the treble over 4k or so. I bet if I do some clips now I'll get confused over which is which if I don't take very good track notes.

So, anyone that doesn't like the bright switch in a TW you might try darkening the amp at the PI (or elsewhere) and giving the switch another try.

For what it's worth my original (and now my clone) is downright muddy with the bright switch off.

I need to thank some folks who helped me so much in finding the right parts and the right information to really get these amps the way I wanted them. Along with the folks at the Ampgarage I'd especially like to thank Richie & Dana Hall, Allyn Meyers, Jeff Talley, and also Jim Weyandt who made the beautiful cabs. I've finally got some "road" amps, a matched pair at that. Thanks!

GK

[img:800:797]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-10/ ... aBell7.jpg[/img]

[img:800:767]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-10/ ... aBell1.jpg[/img]

[Allynmey]

Glen those sure are a couple of cuties!!!

[drhulsey]

... I'd especially like to thank Richie & Dana Hall, Allyn Meyers, Jeff Talley, and also Jim Weyandt...

1+ This forum is a TREASURE TROVE of GREAT PEOPLE Let's not forget to thank the "geetarpicker" himself, Glen Kuykendall, for sharing all his experience and comparisons It provides tremendous motivation for those who haven't yet built their clone

[kleinm]

I spend most of my AG time on the Dumble side of the tracks, so I missed this.

Glen, amazing work. Your clone sounds absolutely phenomenal. I don't claim to be an Express expert, but it had me fooled (I picked incorrectly). All your hard work, attention to detail, and comparisons obviously paid off. Congratulations!

...I'm going to have to buy a CD. I love that song!

Out of curiousity, did you get down to the finest detail with things like the Rubycon capacitors, Mallory polyester ODs, sealed potentiometers, etc? I'm hoping I can build an Express this summer, and I've read varying opinions on what REALLY matters and what doesn't as much.

[geetarpicker]

Out of curiousity, did you get down to the finest detail with things like the Rubycon capacitors, Mallory polyester ODs, sealed potentiometers, etc? I'm hoping I can build an Express this summer, and I've read varying opinions on what REALLY matters and what doesn't as much.

To be honest I really don't know what matters the most either. Though I have my opinions and to a certain extent I think EVERYTHING matters in these things. There are some "knowns" in these things, and some "unknowns". I choose to find everything I possiby could, but probably at the top of the list for me was the Pacific transformers and BUD chassis. Not that other transformers aren't totally fine, but I was specifically copying my original that HAS Pacifics. I couldn't find any Rubycons and I used CGE pots which aren't sealed but neither were those in my original. I liked the fact that the CGEs were fairly decent and you can solder to them which helps copy the layout more closely. Also I got a vendor to hand pick some that very closely match the values in my original, some of which were a bit different then marked. I did use two original thin aluminum BUD chassis with screw on bottom plates, just like the original. Also I used original spec Pacific transformers like my original. A few other details I copied on my original were NOS Cinch tube sockets, Lorin output selector, Mallory PVC signal caps in the proper .02, .002, and .1 values (instead of the more easily found .0022s and .022s), PVC wire in matching colors, original spec board material and flea clips, NOS 25 watt 1k resistor that matched original perfectly, Switchcraft jacks, fairly high flux content leaded solder, Cherry cab, two wood chassis reinforcement dowels, window weatherstrip, and I matched the layout and lead dress of my original down to within a millimeter or two, and the mechanical placement of everything to at least 1mm, and I tubed them with the same tubes I favor in my original, etc. I only used shielded cable on the input lead, and both amps are 100% stable with all knobs cranked to 10 even with the bottom plate taken off. Other than just yesterday upping the PI cap to 250pf, they are 100% copies with no other changes. If it weren't for the date codes on some of the caps and the pot and switch brands, these amps could probably be passed off as originals if you saw the chassis inside. That said, I stamped them both 2007 so that no one (if they somehow got out of my hands) could ever pass them off as originals even if they faked a logo and tube chart. Ken wasn't with us (sadly) by 2007.

Heck half of my attention to detail probably didn't matter. But instead of questioning it all this is how I approached it. It was fun anyway, even to make it look right. I don't plan to build any other amps period, so I just wanted to get what I needed done right from the start. That said, just for backup in case something ever happens to either of my amps I have one spare set of transformers and one BUD chassis on the shelf. To be honest I only like building for about the 1st hour, and I put off this whole project for years and years.

I've needed to do this all for a long time now, as with the values of the original Wreck so high it's too much worry to take the original out much anymore unless I plan to baby sit the thing.

[keithrick]

Glen,

They were great clips, I guessed right fwiw.

A quick question:

It is interesting that you chose to up the cap in the PI section as opposed to bypassing a plate resistor. Was there any specific rational for your technique to tame the highs? Both bypassing plate resistors and the PI cap have been used in Wrecks to my knowledge.

Again killer playing!

Keith

[kleinm]

Thanks for the information, Glen. I saved that paragraph in my project file.

BTW - I just ordered a CD. I'm excited to check it out!

[geetarpicker]

Glen,

They were great clips, I guessed right fwiw.

A quick question:

It is interesting that you chose to up the cap in the PI section as opposed to bypassing a plate resistor. Was there any specific rational for your technique to tame the highs? Both bypassing plate resistors and the PI cap have been used in Wrecks to my knowledge.

Again killer playing!

Keith

Naw, just the first thing I tried. Very effective though. I'll need to redo the clips at some point. I may gig it a couple times though, just to be sure specifically about 250pf vs 200 or maybe 150?. I did try 150pf, and that just wasn't enough to get it in the range of my original. Getting down to fine details though. What sounds right with my original G12Ms may not be what works best with my Scumbacks. My Scumbacks are just a hair brighter than my original G12Ms in the extreme top end, so for now I'll try the 250pf cap to see if it all balances out.

[docadillac]

That was beautiful playing, Glen. I have been recently introduced to Trainwreck amps and their creator Ken Fischer. I was sad to hear of his death. He was a truly gifted and passionate individual by everything I've read. The fact that there are clones is interesting to me as I would like to come as close as I can to getting that tone in my head. I used to be a real Marshall fan and still am as I started playing 45 years ago and had a couple of great Marshall amps in my playing heyday. I also used a '68 Les Paul custom bought for me by my father for my 13th birthday. Sadly, the gear is all gone and I haven't played in a while but I'd like to play again. The Trainwreck clones sound really good even if they are not the same as a real Trainwreck. I did have a chance to haer the clips from the Trainwreck/Ceriatone shootout. Both amps sounded great and the '59 Les Paul didn't hurt either. That is exactly the tone I love, rich and complex with clean articulation and variability. This forum is a godsend to me. I don't know how to build and I'm learning and absorbing as much as possible, Thank you for your information and sound clips. If I've hijacked this thread I apologize to my musician brothers.

[DocRocz]

I like both amps. What gave it away for me is right after the drums come in there is a string bend and then a small chord.
To my ear when I hear that little chord it's still defined with one amp and the second amp starts to break up and get muddy.

It's muddy enough that I would have a tough time figuring out what the heck it was. Some thing about the upper harmonic structure that stays defined with the TrainWreck vs. the Clone.

My 2 cents.

[Brad737]

Wow...Through my laptop speakers, I couldn't tell any difference. Both clips sounded awesome.

[wsaraceni]

id be happy with either of the two. both sound killer.

[guitonit]

Hey Glenn!!

The clones sound GREAT!! The cabinets turned out fantastic as well. I might have to stop over for a little tune up with mine!!

Scott A.