Axial leaded PP film foil capacitors

[kuDo]

Well, that just happened… sometimes I feel like a muggle from that famous story.

[kuDo]

The general idea of isolating changes and making only one change at a time is a good one. The problem is how do you measure change?

Yes, good argument.

In the graphics world you can choose to go back and forth between two layers in software like photoshop and compare the edits/changes really fast. But in the world of sound it is a lot harder in terms of detail comparisons.
Since sound over time is real hard to pinpoint, maintain and reference.

[R.G.]

Yeah. The nut of the problem is that hearing happens in the brain, not the ears.
We automatically assign emotional contexts and values to sounds, much like we do smells. Worse yet for amp builders, human psychology gets in the way. If you have a goal of making your amp sound much, much better, and you swap a part or two, you are very, very prone to thinking that it got better. And to you, it does actually, really, no-fooling, sound better for a while. Your brain is invested in how well you fixed it. The next day or next week, changing something else may make it sound even better...
It's not just sly selfish pride, necessarily. Your brain really really does fire off the "hey that sounds great" flares, and does it in a way your conscious mind is unaware of.

The psychology guys have had to design blind, double blind, and triple blind tests for just this issue. It affects the testers too. One of the commonest problems in setting up tests is to not set them up in ways that confirm the pre-conceived notions of the testers. The human mind is COMPLICATED.

Science-y people have spent at least the last three centuries trying to make sure that if they detected something, it was real and not just a feeling. Yeah, we know that frequency analyzers are not really able to hear and tell us about the sound. But we know that a frequency analyzer is completely unswayed by whether or not we just put in that magic amp mod we found on the amp mods forum.

[bepone]

The general idea of isolating changes and making only one change at a time is a good one. The problem is how do you measure change?

i have ears, here enough, no?

Humans can not in general remember "tone" accurately enough or long enough to be usable at quick interviews of sound equipment. It is a quirk of human psychology that humans do >think< that they can do so, and are certain enough of this to argue the point even after well designed and fair tests prove them wrong.

i see that you like more philosophical then realistic world, ok if i build one amp and this amp which is disturbing my ears (for the years!) and i can recognise very small change in the tone, because i got used to it playing the same amp for the years and always is making the same.. the parts in the spectrum what irritates me are always the same.. and i change per example several capacitors. in treble circuits, coupling, change only the material MKP for MKP or oposite or ceramic, not the value.. what you think that is the result? all is always the same?

[pdf64]

…
i have ears, here enough, no?
…

For the reasons explained in R.G.’s post, not really. Of course it’s fine to express opinion, but as it’s a technical forum, it seems a good idea for posts here to work towards technical accuracy. So rather than just making assertions, it’s helpful to qualify opinions as being such, and where feasible, to explain / justify them.

[bepone]

opinion or few decades of personal experience? and why i need to remove my ears from the audio art which are the main instrument for the creation, actions and results?
if one wants to read about capacitors can also read old scientific texts like this one from Jung/ Marsh http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/oldRC ... ckcap.html

but what this will tell you about the sound of 716P OD cap when placing in the coupling between V1 nad V2? and how the same cap will sound when placed in middle cap in the tone stack?

[TUBEDUDE]

I think rather than reading an article/spec sheet to determine a change in cap behavior, most here would agree with before and after measurements, to show changes that can be measured.
Now granted, we might not measure everything that could possibly be a factor in the complex dynamics of a guitar signal. But certainly static measurements of every possible parameter may show the differences. And someone here might have a way to measure spectra in the dynamic domain.
Hearing being an individual and funny process in earthlings.

[R.G.]

opinion or few decades of personal experience? and why i need to remove my ears from the audio art which are the main instrument for the creation, actions and results?

Opinion and a few decades of personal experience are actually the same thing. You don't need to remove your ears from evaluating audio; in fact, you can't. But many long decades of psychological research and careful testing of human preferences show that opinion varies from person to person, from day to day, and indeed on what a person expects to be true, not what is actually measurable. Your opinion is absolutely valid - to you. Someone else, or even you on a different day may make different decisions. This is the fundamental problem of subjectivism.

but what this will tell you about the sound of 716P OD cap when placing in the coupling between V1 nad V2? and how the same cap will sound when placed in middle cap in the tone stack?

Nothing.
But here's a closely allied question. Presumably you believe that you can detect the difference, better versus worse, between a 716P cap and some other cap with a carefully matched capacitance value between V1 and V2; otherwise, there is no reason for this discussion.
Let's imagine that I set up a test where I can exchange the 716P for the other unspecified cap in a manner that you cannot detect. How much money would you wager that you can detect the difference between having the 716P in circuit and the other cap in circuit, or between the cap being changed or not changed, better than random chance? And do it repeatedly, day after day? And that other people will be able to do the same thing?

This is the kind of test that broke the hifi "golden ears" mythos. What they found was that even the most respected sound listening specialist could not do better than chance in general. Other tests showed that people asked for opinions, when they could not see what was being changed, found other clues and had "preferences" based on these other clues - things like did the person administering the test inhale or take a little more time with certain changes, and then voted based on the secondary clues, whether or not the administrator had made changes or not. They found differences where the administrator did nothing. This is why psychological testing goes to great lengths to eliminate all clues and information about what is being tested.

The differences between even two supposedly identical 716P (or other...) caps can be measured to a very precise level. Careful testing shows that no two caps are truly the same capacitance, ESR and ESL. They all have slight differences. My local parts supplier lists 716Ps with +/-5% and +/-10% tolerance. Two "identical" 716Ps in the +/-5% category may be 10% different in value. The higher tolerance ones cam be 20% different. If you wanted a 0.01uF coupling cap, would a 0.009uF cap sound different from a 0.011uF cap?

The final summation is that yes, you can trust your ears to tell you that this sound makes you happy. But don't demand that they do the same every day, nor that other ears will have the same result.

[bepone]

But many long decades of psychological research and careful testing of human preferences show that opinion varies from person to person, from day to day, and indeed on what a person expects to be true, not what is actually measurable. Your opinion is absolutely valid - to you. Someone else, or even you on a different day may make different decisions. This is the fundamental problem of subjectivism.

we are speaking of gastronomy here and cooking the sauce, this is the same like in audio, i build the taste for me, thats the point. and i can state my opinion about some element and this is what is forum about. but when somebody starts this is all the same.. this is only telling me how many amps this person build in the life. less than 5, blind shot, isn't it?

Nothing.
But here's a closely allied question. Presumably you believe that you can detect the difference, better versus worse, between a 716P cap and some other cap with a carefully matched capacitance value between V1 and V2; otherwise, there is no reason for this discussion.

of course, sometimes it is enough to change only one C in tone stack, value for value, different material

Let's imagine that I set up a test where I can exchange the 716P for the other unspecified cap in a manner that you cannot detect. How much money would you wager that you can detect the difference between having the 716P in circuit and the other cap in circuit, or between the cap being changed or not changed, better than random chance? And do it repeatedly, day after day? And that other people will be able to do the same thing?

did you try this test by yourself and play the guitar after that? some caps are making different sounds when strumming up, like a bell, other not. what instrument you are using for that "bell"?

This is the kind of test that broke the hifi "golden ears" mythos.

there is nothing hifi here

The differences between even two supposedly identical 716P (or other...) caps can be measured to a very precise level. Careful testing shows that no two caps are truly the same capacitance, ESR and ESL. They all have slight differences. My local parts supplier lists 716Ps with +/-5% and +/-10% tolerance. Two "identical" 716Ps in the +/-5% category may be 10% different in value. The higher tolerance ones cam be 20% different. If you wanted a 0.01uF coupling cap, would a 0.009uF cap sound different from a 0.011uF cap?

The final summation is that yes, you can trust your ears to tell you that this sound makes you happy. But don't demand that they do the same every day, nor that other ears will have the same result.

i can't bet that is possible to hear difference between 0.009 and 0.01 it is very small change in the same cap type/series, -3dB is changed in minor amount. .. im speaking about material and brands....material is changing a lot the tone, and effect is cumulative. per example build a an Marshal type of amp all with sozo caps, and change it for Orange drops 6PS or 715's .. with 6PS's and 715's sound is aplolutely shit/*y, and with sozos is spectacular mellow and round, prolonged sustain..

you need to try by yourself, i see that you didnt experience this

[R.G.]

you need to try by yourself, i see that you didnt experience this

You see nothing about me. You are merely being pejorative because you disagree.

I've not only done component tests, playing for myself and having others play and offer opinions. I have also run blind component tests for other guitarists who could not believe that component values made a bigger difference than the type of insulation. And tests where they cursed me and/or refused to believe that I had reversed or changed a component or not. My perception from your comment is that you fall into this last category.

Your story about moving/switching/interviewing caps and positions is what the logicians would call anecdotal evidence. (So is mine, by the way, unless I can present supporting evidence. ) It is one story that you relate that may or may not be true, until supported by additional evidence. In the absence of that additional evidence, one anecdote is worth the same as a thousand - that amount being zero. Your assertion that I have never experienced/done this for myself is somewhere between a circular argument, a strawman attack, and an ad hominem attack. The implication is in effect, that (1) I don't agree with you (2) if I had done the test you did, then I would get the same results so (3) therefore I have never done the test. Can you spot the problem with that reasoning? You might want to read up on "logical fallacies".

Do whatever you like or believe in for your amplifiers. Again, you are free to believe anything you want.

So am I. Got some facts?

[pompeiisneaks]

Bepone, you seem to be taking offense where no offense was meant. R.G. has a strong depth of scientific study behind this and isn't making it up.

Opinions are valid, important and useful. They are not facts. He has never said your opinions were invalid, just that you always should take their datum with a grain of salt, because of hte randomness of human perception/

I don't think you need to be this defensive, because he's agreed your opinion has validity, it's just not something that outside scientific study can correlate or repeat.

Keep believing what you've seen in real life, but realize that there's also a lot of data to back what he's saying as fact, not opinion.

~Phil

[bepone]

Bepone, you seem to be taking offense where no offense was meant. R.G. has a strong depth of scientific study

no i'm apsolutelly fine no offense taken! discussion is healthy still from the words expressed here to me just looked that mr. R.G. didnt conceeded too much test in the life, and i just did zillion in all combinations of the materials and values and like a result i have a table of the usable caps to each position for desired effect.

for me material makes bigger difference and thats all. it is like a gastronomy, apsolutely the same we are playing with the spices . it is easy to do one amp and change brand of capacitors through it , effect is huge, no need to do any blind tests, it is from irritant to mellow. the effect is permanent, is is not in personal perceptive domain, everybody can hear. and when we are making those tests many persons are involved and we are haring the change (to better or worst)