Looking for EL84 Tone Comparisons by Tube Brand

[R.G.]

I would be very grateful indeed for a
1. statistically valid
2. scientifically valid
3. double blind
test of the "tone" of any tubes at all, in any manner.

What, exactly, does "tone" mean exactly. Is it scalar quantity, as in "this tube has 8.37 tone"? Is it vector quantity, as in "this tube has 4.3 mid tone and 9.2 high tone"? Is it a polynomial multidimensional quantity? Are the qualities measurable at all? Or is it something that is like "a silken start with heavy oak and parsnips, a solid mid feel, and a finish of peppercorns and strawberry rutababa"? Will a statistically valid number of people agree on even the qualities in "tone", or will it ever be measurable?

And if it's not measurable in a repeatable way, what exactly would comparisons of tone by brand even mean?

I'm not throwing stones, I really would like to get at the answers to these questions in a measurable, repeatable way.

Near as I can tell, any time you nail down the facts, the magic disappears. If we could ever measure this stuff, we could just buy the good, high-tone ones.

[AmpAwe]

I would be very grateful indeed for a
1. statistically valid
2. scientifically valid
3. double blind
test of the "tone" of any tubes at all, in any manner.

What, exactly, does "tone" mean exactly. Is it scalar quantity, as in "this tube has 8.37 tone"? Is it vector quantity, as in "this tube has 4.3 mid tone and 9.2 high tone"? Is it a polynomial multidimensional quantity? Are the qualities measurable at all? Or is it something that is like "a silken start with heavy oak and parsnips, a solid mid feel, and a finish of peppercorns and strawberry rutababa"? Will a statistically valid number of people agree on even the qualities in "tone", or will it ever be measurable?

And if it's not measurable in a repeatable way, what exactly would comparisons of tone by brand even mean?

I'm not throwing stones, I really would like to get at the answers to these questions in a measurable, repeatable way.

Near as I can tell, any time you nail down the facts, the magic disappears. If we could ever measure this stuff, we could just buy the good, high-tone ones.

I can't help but wonder - if you have even looked at the link that i posted.... cause it kinda spells it out in some detail that you might be asking for - the items in that link are what combine to make up what guitarists often refer to as "tone".

AND - I should maybe add, for my own tube evaluation of tube tone tests I added a graphical numerical value of each tubes distortion in addition to the charts values of low, mid, high - also for my notes I added comments for which I wrote myself some descriptive notes of the character and impression of each tube. Things like - musical, dark, colored, grainy, gravely clear, crisp, strong/weak tube, marshally, voxy, loud, mushy, balanced or what ever the heck came to mind while listening to each 12AX7

[roberto]

It is not possible to measure tone, of course. We are in 2020 and nobody pretend to do so.

But there are often some common point of views for same products in similar circuits (think about JJ 12ax7 in high gain amps, that are commonly considered to sound with less highs).
Apart from similar products in same circuits, when often there are similar opinions, there's obviously no way to demonstrate how much "tone" a specific brand has.

At least this is my small experience.

[dorrisant]

I've always worked under the premise that "if you can't make it sound good with a new set of JJs then you're not done tweaking the circuit."

I'm not saying that you can't get better tone with a vintage tube here and there (not just V1), just saying that the percentage of tonal improvement of difference by changing tube brand is not a huge leap, it is splitting hairs.

[martin manning]

All tubes have manufacturing tolerances that bring variation in plate current and gm. That will cause the operating point to shift, which could affect the harmonic distortion content. Some 12AX7's are noticeably lacking in high end (possibly due to high inter-electrode capacitance), and some are noisier than others. However, any comparison based on a single, or even several samples of a given tube brand is not going to lead to any general conclusion.

[AmpAwe]

Hi Thanks all you "respondents"! for your input. Your posts have brought a couple of thinks to mind... That web link for the eval's of the 12AX7's does say they have taken "the same number of samples per brand" for an average of the sounds they are reporting. And they say we should expect that even tubes of the exact same type and brand are going to vary. Thank you for not busting my chops to provide a mathematical "proof" in vector geometry as the definition of my AXE' noise and I appreciate the idea of "common point of views" AND also I think I will put the JJ's from my V32 into the V33 and just see if those make any difference.

I am starting to think that maybe EL84 do not have a list of "how the brands sound" like there is for the 12AX7, on account of maybe they just don't differ that much between the brands. There is such a list for the 6l6... So anyway thanks for helping me learn! I did get those Russian Reflector tubes and I got different pricing points of the same tube and there is really very little difference in their sound, and not much different than the Groove Tubes either. To wit, the 6P14P Reflectors are just ever so slightly more crispy than the 6P14P Preferred's and the Sovetek's are no so much crispy or edgy as the 6P14P but more as "creamy". BUT -these differences are not really going to make a world of difference especially after the mix and production to tracks. Especially to those less "pedantic" n my self, SO, it does lead me to understand why there would be AMP guys that are not so much interested in differences in EL84's and are more focused on tweaking the circuit! And I do think that I am going to look into that tweaking the circuits in the V33 to brighten up the gain channel some. Also going to try a couple more changes in the pre tubes, see what can be done.

[AmpAwe]

After using my very best sounding tubes in various positions in the crate V33 pre-amp. And there is nothing wrong with the new Reflector 6P14P's - therefore HAVE determined that the V33 has NO redeeming value for sound - as the circuits were made from that dying manufacture - it just sounds like POO. So I can try to figure out how to make the circuit better.

[pompeiisneaks]

I don't know I've heard of anyone claiming the tone of their crate was their favorite amp.

You can do one of two things:

1. gut it and build something better.
2. sell it and buy a better amp

~Phil

[AmpAwe]

Hey oh - I am not surprised it stinks. I just recently bought it for $150 and expected it to sound bad based on reviews - I bought it for the parts. I have just been messing with it to see what could be done with tubes and it did help and the gain channel sounds good with the bridge pickk up but with the neck pickup it is not good at all. Next I want to learn how to modify the circuit and see what I can learn and how i can get it to sound - Then I just may do a hand wire design, with these parts. Just having fun. Going to be careful not to let it shock me - eh!

[pompeiisneaks]

Hey oh - I am not surprised it stinks. I just recently bought it for $150 and expected it to sound bad based on reviews - I bought it for the parts. I have just been messing with it to see what could be done with tubes and it did help and the gain channel sounds good with the bridge pickk up but with the neck pickup it is not good at all. Next I want to learn how to modify the circuit and see what I can learn and how i can get it to sound - Then I just may do a hand wire design, with these parts. Just having fun. Going to be careful not to let it shock me - eh!

And that's probably one of the best way's to learn

~Phil

[AmpAwe]

always have wanted to mess with amps and build something cool. Dad taught me how to discarch a TV tube way back in the 1960s. He was pretty darn good about teaching us how to do these things without getting kilt

[kkillebrew]

As has been said - the differences are subtle and very situation dependent. Personally I love the smooth and rich sound of RCA NOS Black plate EL84s for small SE amps, however they are expensive in matched pairs and quads. For PP in a 15W or 30W class A amp - JJ, Sovtek, etc., does not matter too much so long as they test good and are matched. I generally stay away from Chinese tubes.

[AmpAwe]

Thank you for that I will keep a lookout for RCA BPs, and add them to my list

[roberto]

I don't know I've heard of anyone claiming the tone of their crate was their favorite amp.

Crate Vintage Club was one of my first amps and I have to say it was very good sounding. They have build few very good amps and alot of cheap not-the-best stuff.

[AmpAwe]

I don't know I've heard of anyone claiming the tone of their crate was their favorite amp.

Crate Vintage Club was one of my first amps and I have to say it was very good sounding. They have build few very good amps and alot of cheap not-the-best stuff.

Yes - Some Crates have pretty respectable tone, but still get no respect, which is OK by me. A guitarist in a popular Denver band demoed the Crate 32 for me at GC - he played the gain channel with boost on at about 8.5 volume with a Les Paul - The V32 has a pretty great sound like that - a bit of a one trick pony, but you know if the trick is a good one, then it is pretty great. So I bought one. The V33 is really very similar to the V32, but Crate changed it enough to really mess it up. Thing is the V32 would overheat and burn out the input diode (i think that was the component), a really well know problem. I have taken the top grill plate of to give it more air flow, for better cooling - the suggested fix is to get the diode up off the circuit board to prevent the problem, I should maybe do that.

SO ANYWAY just found something out about this Crate V33, been messing with. I took out v5 & v7 - and "OH - I LIKED IT!"

After lots of pre-amp tube changes, I settled on JAN-GE's in v1,v2,v3 and “Reflector 6P14P” in v4 & v6. And the sounds WAS inspiring for me! Which is what I need to play and hear NEW sounds to play better than usual AND to play NEW things I have not played before - just because the sound is inspiring!

I don't think it will hurt the V33 to use it without v5 & v7. But the CAB I used is a 16 ohm where the V33 only has 8 ohm outs. So I need to find out if it is going to be OK to run it like that, because I want more of that!