Looking for EL84 Tone Comparisons by Tube Brand

[AmpAwe]

Hi – Can any of you point me to a source of comparisons of EL84’s tube numbers & brands and hopefully a spectrum of them from their characteristics?

Here ( https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-art ... made-tubes ) is an example of what I would like. This example is describing the 12AX7’s that are available, and is what I would really like to have to study for the EL84/6P14P/7189 type. Even if it is not so much like this example, I really would like whatever you know about that could be of help. I am looking to clear up the muddy gain channel of the Crate V33 that I am fiddling with. So I am looking for a brighter not muddy, but still good for rock and blues power tube.

I have looked at the reviews at https://www.thetubestore.com/el84-tube-review but would like to be able to kinda arrange the brands in the spectrum or hierarchy of character.

I have (did) ordered (order) a quad of “Reflector 6P14P https://www.thetubestore.com/reflector-el84-6p14p ” and ordered just one of the “Preferred Series 7189 https://www.thetubestore.com/preferred- ... emium-el84 ” and also one of the “Bendix 6094 and 6094 to EL84 Adapter Combo https://www.tubedepot.com/products/bend ... pter-combo ”. My strategy is that I will be able to evaluate the individual tube types for how the compare to each other with an AX-84 amp that I have.

Does anyone know what the difference is between the “Preferred Series 7189” & “Reflector 6P14P” could those be the same tube but the preferred as the select premium specimens?

That “Bendix 6094” sound pretty interesting, but I think it would be a problem to try to install it in a combo amp as they would be upside down and then the tube retainers would not go on due to the adapter.

Thank You!

[Stevem]

What amp would these tubes be going in?

I have found amongst other things that some brands sound better in cathode biased amps then fixed bias.

[roberto]

6P14P are more powerful than standard EL84 (14 vs 12 W of plate dissipation) and very linear (I use them for hi-fi), and you can find them with different selection of guaranted workind time:
6P14P - 3000hr; 6P14P-V - 1000hr; 6P14P-EV - 5000hr; 6P14P-ER - >10000hr; 6P14P-K - 3000hr like the standard one, but more mechanically robust (originally designed for military applications, good for guitar combos).

[turbofeedus]

This is a pretty farcical endeavor IMO.
Even if there were reliable, discernable differences between certain EL84 (or whatever tube), you'd still be depending on the relatively crude and impressionable human brain to measure those differences.
Likewise, if those high-mid-low measurements were done with some sophisticated equipment, but ultimately doesn't map onto the human experience( as if there is a singular one), then what's the point™?
I wouldn't put much stock in those comparison charts.

EDIT: And I just want to be clear, I'm not saying that you can't hear differences between certain tubes. I know I've perceived differences, and I have no intention of invalidating the experience of others. What I'm suggesting is there's hardly a reason to believe that another's subjective experience will have any relevance to yours. In other words, you just gotta try them for yourself.

[xtian]

And I just want to be clear, I'm not saying that you can't hear differences between certain tubes. I know I've perceived differences, and I have no intention of invalidating the experience of others. What I'm suggesting is there's hardly a reason to believe that another's subjective experience will have any relevance to yours. In other words, you just gotta try them for yourself

Dude, that was very gracious.

*rant on*
I have been building (and listening carefully) to tube amps for a dozen years now, and I have lost all interest in different brands of tubes, NOS, gold pins, etc. Tubes make, if anything, an extremely subtle difference. To me, they're either good or broken. Small changes in control settings make a much more significant difference. Speakers make a huge difference. Hell, the position of the moon makes a bigger difference in tone than swapping a JJ 12AX7 for a Mullard. Psychoacoustics are a significant factor in all this BS. If you are auditioning a set of power tubes by playing guitar and listening for subtle differences, and then you take a few minutes to swap power tubes and play again, you will easily convince yourself of whatever you want to believe. OTOH, if you set up a scientific test, running prerecorded guitar thru the amp with carefully controlled variables, and you're able to A/B the recordings on a good sound system, then that's useful. YouTube is flooded with speaker shootouts that are made like this, and you can clearly hear the differences. Here's a 12AX7 shootout that's performed scientifically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ2kKyKh2xo and at the end, the guy goes, "I expected a bigger difference." No kidding. Save your money.
*rant off*

[turbofeedus]

OTOH, if you set up a scientific test, running prerecorded guitar thru the amp with carefully controlled variables, and you're able to A/B the recordings on a good sound system, then that's useful.

Usually when I watch these videos, I run into two problems;
1) I can really only perceive the difference for the first couple seconds, after that I have a hard time recalling the sound of the previous test, it all sorta molds together.
2) I get bored about 3 minutes in, and switch to a cat video in the sidebar.

Ultimately, even if we control for the maximum number of variables externally, it's still being filtered through our ears and brain. When your test equipment is subject to the quality of breakfast you had that morning, or that AC/DC concert in 82' that snapped off a bunch of cilia, the results it spits out are a bit dubious.

And these issues are still just floating around in the descriptive plane. When we get to making value statements about "good" or "bad" sounding tubes, it devolves into a Humean wasteland.

[pdf64]

6P14P are more powerful than standard EL84 (14 vs 12 W of plate dissipation) ...

It's hard enough when some plate dissipation limits are rated under the design centre system, others under the design max system; how Soviet era tubes were rated may well be something else altogether.
Or not, who knows?
Using the very few examples where we've got tube limits published for more than one system, design max is about 16% higher than design centre, and absolute max is about 20% higher than design max. By that, EL84 might be regarded as having an abs max 17W plate dissipation limit

[Colossal]

Using the very few examples where we've got tube limits published for more than one system, design max is about 16% higher than design centre, and absolute max is about 20% higher than design max. By that, EL84 might be regarded as having an abs max 17W plate dissipation limit

Vox has certainly put that to the test!

[roberto]

My experience with them is based on some quartets of the EV version, and I never went over 14W with them, but where other EL84 were red plating constantly, those EV (or EB like they are written in cyrillic) were and are working flawless.

[pdf64]

My experience with them is based on some quartets of the EV version, and I never went over 14W with them, but where other EL84 were red plating constantly, those EV (or EB like they are written in cyrillic) were and are working flawless.

It may be that the Soviet tube rating system was more conservative than design centre?
We just don't know, so comparison of the published tube data based on different rating systems is inevitably an apples to oranges thing.
Which sets off the pedant in me, sorry

[Stevem]

The biggest differences I hear between most tubes, not just el84s shows up when you drive them hard and with them having a plate voltage applied that is within 20% of there max rating.
Some get painfully sharp sounding , some get very very loose on the bottom end , and some are a combo of both, while some are just lack any dynamic's when pushed to a certain level, and this is with factoring in power supply sag in non real class A circuits.

There are so many other factors that go into this tone and feel make up it can be quite a long story!

Two other main things would be what impeadence OT the tube(s) are driving into, and on the other side of the OT what speaker is used there, it's efficiency and how well broken in it is.
I recall testing out a few amps that I rebuilt into 2 different speaker cabinet ( the same type of cabinets though) , one with fairly low mileage speakers and one with well broken in speakers.

The cabinet with the well broken in speakers produced so much more bottom end that the amp could be run 2 notches down on the volume control, and yet is still had more punch then the other speakers!

This also made for far latter break up of the output stage and a smother top when the amp did start to clip.

[roberto]

We just don't know, so comparison of the published tube data is inevitably an apples to oranges thing.
Which sets off the pedant in me, sorry

I frankly think that we are not yet into extinction because of pedant people. If it is positive or not, I've not yet understood.

[AmpAwe]

Been know, time to time, be rather pedantic me own self, may be whys I tries different tubes in different positions on tubes amps, ...certainly hears differences, may be why I can’t stands to walk through some theft detectors in some department stores, for the blistering hiss that fills the air, without plugging my ears, others simply cannot hear – hmm? And why I simply can’t form a response to some of these posts… while I presume there actually is no answer to the OP QN...

[R.G.]

I would be very grateful indeed for a statistically and scientifically valid double blind test of the "tone" of any tubes at all, in any manner.

Near as I can tell, any time you nail down the facts, the magic disappears.

[AmpAwe]

I would be very grateful indeed for a statistically and scientifically valid double blind test of the "tone" of any tubes at all, in any manner.

Near as I can tell, any time you nail down the facts, the magic disappears.

I found this info to be quite valid here: ( https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-art ... made-tubes ) was the example I linked in the OP - I have about 36 12AX7's - I listened to them all through an ART pre with CD player, and documented those results for each preamp tube. Those test prove valid and valuable to select character of what I can put in my GTR Tube amps to color their tones and find that moving tubes around is pretty serious magic to get the amps to sound much better. Those test that I did, in general, very much support the results charted in https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-art ... made-tubes chart. Also there are sometimes tubes that varies a great deal from one tube of the very same kind to another tube of the very same kind. And of course that is valuable information about the tube manufacturer / supplier. However - I just cannot buy 36 sets of power tubes to do this same kind of testing. Oh-Boy would it be nice if there was a list similar to https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-art ... made-tubes for power tubes, but I am not getting any closer to finding that...

I think I have a look at https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-art ... made-tubes and see if this chart for 6l6 in any way may be applied to EL84s