How can I get my ODS to be more "on the edge of out of control"?

[jcsifu]

As stated, I am looking for any suggestions in changes that you might have observed that swayed your amp to be on the verge of going into feedback/out of control. This might sound strange to want to do, but I think it would help with getting the feel I am wanting. It isn't so much the sound as it is the feel, like driving an overpowered car in town and keeping it in control. That's the best way I can describe it anyway. Something of a more exciting/scary experience that you have to keep an eye on. I'm looking to feel more inspired when I play. I've been bored with my playing for a while. I do pick up work and session work with various bands/artists. The amp is a 102 inspired amp. I'm not a living room player although I have kids and a girlfriend living with me, and practice at home is lower volume. If anyone has any ideas for this I would appreciate them.

jc

[Charlie Wilson]

Hello, things to play with. Reduce filtering on the mains, experiment with the positive feedback aspect of lead dress, and component choices. My opinion but the "out of control" characteristics you describe I usually associate with Trainwreck Amps, Marshall amps turned all the way up, or happy accidents in builds that make them just on the verge of unstable (Feedback City).
CW

[talbany]

Like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCywIFeMcyk

Tony

[jcsifu]

Like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCywIFeMcyk

Tony

Yup, sounds on the edge. How loud was the amp and how close to it were you?

[talbany]

When I did the clips I was around 6 ft or so. The amp was moderately loud but not cranked. I would say typical low level gig volume. It would feedback just the same on both clean and OD channels didn't matter as well as how I set my gain controls. I did have my Dumbleator on that clip but wanted to feedback a bit more without the Dumbleator. With a Hollow body guitar was at times too much and borderline obnoxious

Tony

[jcsifu]

When I did the clips I was around 6 ft or so. The amp was moderately loud but not cranked. I would say typical low level gig volume. It would feedback just the same on both clean and OD channels didn't matter as well as how I set my gain controls. I did have my Dumbleator on that clip but wanted to feedback a bit more without the Dumbleator. With a Hollow body guitar was at times too much and borderline obnoxious

Tony

Nice! If I play my 335 at that volume it will get a little squirrely depending on the room and where I set up. Is that a 102 inspired rig?

[jcsifu]

experiment with the positive feedback aspect of lead dress

When you say positive feedback are you talking about the little circuit on V1, 22M-cap-22M? I have that on a switch to take it out but that seems to only fatten things up, not move things out of control.

[talbany]

When I did the clips I was around 6 ft or so. The amp was moderately loud but not cranked. I would say typical low level gig volume. It would feedback just the same on both clean and OD channels didn't matter as well as how I set my gain controls. I did have my Dumbleator on that clip but wanted to feedback a bit more without the Dumbleator. With a Hollow body guitar was at times too much and borderline obnoxious

Tony

Nice! If I play my 335 at that volume it will get a little squirrely depending on the room and where I set up. Is that a 102 inspired rig?

Yes it's a 102 here is the build thread humorously named "Feedback City"
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... dback+city

So there are several things you can do to promote the feedback. C.W gives you most of them.
Layout leadress and the use of positive feedback in some spots. The Skyliner's seem to want to feedback the most due to the mid push of that stack along with the high plates the 100w output section, and lowered filtering IMO all contributed..You also want a clean signal with as little noise as possible so you have to orient your caps and watch your lead dress and circuit constants..You want your mids to be clear open and forward for enhanced acoustic coupling to your guitar You also don't want a loose low end. Too much low end will kill the amps ability to want to take off so frequency response is key (this is where the parts selection comes into play). A balanced output section and PI also helps out. In the end I do believe some of it is just luck as there was nothing I did electric-ly to that amp that made it so unstable it just landed that way and I tested the hell out of that amp to try and find the culprit..Out of all the ODS I've built the 102 design is the best as far as note bloom feedback and sustain goes..What a great amp!

Hope this helps!

Tony

[jcsifu]

When I did the clips I was around 6 ft or so. The amp was moderately loud but not cranked. I would say typical low level gig volume. It would feedback just the same on both clean and OD channels didn't matter as well as how I set my gain controls. I did have my Dumbleator on that clip but wanted to feedback a bit more without the Dumbleator. With a Hollow body guitar was at times too much and borderline obnoxious

Tony

Nice! If I play my 335 at that volume it will get a little squirrely depending on the room and where I set up. Is that a 102 inspired rig?

Yes it's a 102 here is the build thread humorously named "Feedback City"
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... dback+city

So there are several things you can do to promote the feedback. C.W gives you most of them.
Layout leadress and the use of positive feedback in some spots. The Skyliner's seem to want to feedback the most due to the mid push of that stack along with the high plates the 100w output section, and lowered filtering IMO all contributed..You also want a clean signal with as little noise as possible so you have to orient your caps and watch your lead dress and circuit constants..You want your mids to be clear open and forward for enhanced acoustic coupling to your guitar You also don't want a loose low end. Too much low end will kill the amps ability to want to take off so frequency response is key (this is where the parts selection comes into play). A balanced output section and PI also helps out. In the end I do believe some of it is just luck as there was nothing I did electric-ly to that amp that made it so unstable it just landed that way and I tested the hell out of that amp to try and find the culprit..Out of all the ODS I've built the 102 design is the best as far as note bloom feedback and sustain goes..What a great amp!

Hope this helps!

Tony

It is a wonderful sounding amp for sure Tony. I appreciate you offering your suggestions to get the instability I'm looking for. I'll read your build thread and see what it gives me. I'm thinking of the "less bass" comment you made. Maybe I'll play around and re-think the tone control settings with that in mind. I usually start with BM & T at halfway then raise and lower them individually while playing, stopping where it sounds best for the room or club. I'll try ending at a lower setting than normal for the bass. Also will try lowering my filters to see if I can get lucky like you did. That really is sweet sounding. Is that your main rig? What guitar is your favorite to pair it with. I bet it loves humbuckers.

[talbany]

That amp was my main rig for a few years then I got an offer on it I could'nt refuse so I sold it to a friend and wonderful player so it was put to good use. I had another 102 at the time and still have that one
That amp worked pretty well with quite a few although I would have to say my favorite pair would be my Tele (52 Reissue) It also worked well with my ES-339. with a coil tapped JB in the bridge so yes it loved humbuckers too.. I really dig the High plates with the lower output pickups for some reason. I get a nice thick twang in overdrive without the ice pick in the ear thing with my 102's and in general prefer the Humbuckers on my low plates since they are already plenty thick and the low plates seem to be a little livelier in clean mode and sound a bit more clear in the top end vs the high plates which seem to have a flatter top end and thicker mids. If that makes any sense at all
This has more to do with the design than any particular amp I've built

This is the Tone!! Tele+102.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-Rz9_xugIU
Tony

[jcsifu]

I like most of Robben, but not all. No denying the skill and tones though. Tony, what guitar were you using in your clip? Was that the tele?

[talbany]

I like most of Robben, but not all. No denying the skill and tones though. Tony, what guitar were you using in your clip? Was that the tele?

Wow That was a while ago I think that was my 339 but don't hold me to it.
BTW. I too am not a fan of all RF tones either but that one has always resonated with me..Such a Phat sounding Tele

T

[jcsifu]

I like most of Robben, but not all. No denying the skill and tones though. Tony, what guitar were you using in your clip? Was that the tele?

Wow That was a while ago I think that was my 339 but don't hold me to it.
BTW. I too am not a fan of all RF tones either but that one has always resonated with me..Such a Phat sounding Tele

T

Agree on the Phat-ness! I only have one tele I keep around for the inevitable country gig I get once or twice a year. Everyone so far has wanted me to pair it with a 66 deluxe reverb I have. It is a nice rig, and after a week with it I'm good to go for whatever they want. I've never thought to put it into the 102 inspired amp. This might be fun! I'm going to wait until next weekend to try it, only because I want to get some push on it and we have family visiting and was told not to disappear with a guitar in hand this time. Fair enough as I had Friday and Saturday gigs the last couple of times they stayed with us. Less of an issue with Covid cutting down on live gigs. But hey...if you don't go, people stop calling...fact of life. An ongoing issue with us.

[talbany]

I like most of Robben, but not all. No denying the skill and tones though. Tony, what guitar were you using in your clip? Was that the tele?

Wow That was a while ago I think that was my 339 but don't hold me to it.
BTW. I too am not a fan of all RF tones either but that one has always resonated with me..Such a Phat sounding Tele

T

Agree on the Phat-ness! I only have one tele I keep around for the inevitable country gig I get once or twice a year. Everyone so far has wanted me to pair it with a 66 deluxe reverb I have. It is a nice rig, and after a week with it I'm good to go for whatever they want. I've never thought to put it into the 102 inspired amp. This might be fun! I'm going to wait until next weekend to try it, only because I want to get some push on it and we have family visiting and was told not to disappear with a guitar in hand this time. Fair enough as I had Friday and Saturday gigs the last couple of times they stayed with us. Less of an issue with Covid cutting down on live gigs. But hey...if you don't go, people stop calling...fact of life. An ongoing issue with us.

A Tele and an old Deluxe Reverb is your classic country/Rock kind of sound to me great for that type of thing especially if you can saturate the 6V's. A Tele through the OD of a 102 reminds me more of an old Tweed Deluxe style amp cranked up. A bit fatter and not as much twang, more refined with a tighter low end..Both are completely legit tones. I am not really a "Country" picker but love the sound of a Phat Tele (Like through an old tweed). This is just what my ears tell me you are on your own from here..Good Luck!!

Tony

[dbharris]

If curious about Country style tunes and #102, you may want to give Daniel Donato's latest album a listen. It's called A Young Man's Country. It was produced by Robben Ford and looks like #102 was used on many tracks. He calls his style Cosmic Country, Grateful Dead meets chicken pickin.

He posted some instagram clips while in the studio:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCpRnojlFlA ... s0j6f5efse

https://www.instagram.com/p/B54Afqkl8k5 ... pho0lkk3qy

Can't see the amp in this clip, but I think it is the same setup
https://www.instagram.com/p/B56gPbbFlDo ... h3sglyo4oe

A more bluesy bit
https://www.instagram.com/p/B59VU4WlroW ... ct7koa2buz

-Dan