ODS - any advice?

[Lothy]

Find yourself some nice vintage iron from a Fender Twin. NOS tubes help too.

Is this really necessary? I read this all the time, over and over again, NOS parts, old iron.
I mean, this makes it all even more difficult. What's wrong with new transformers & tubes?

Cheers
Gerhard

[Synchu]

Transformers are not necessarily worse, just different and if you're chasing the specific tone properties of the yesteryear, this may require some adjustments.

Tubes (or at least a number of them) are definitely worse. Getting something to perform as per the datasheets is hit and miss by a large margin.
A partial solution is purchasing from stores that are testing what they sell, but FWIW I still prefer NOS/ANOS preamp tubes.
TAD 6L6WGC are very good as power tubes, in my book at least.

There's no reason you can't get an excellent sounding amp with current production, it is just going for that extra little that makes it even better.

Niki

[norburybrook]

Find yourself some nice vintage iron from a Fender Twin. NOS tubes help too.

Is this really necessary? I read this all the time, over and over again, NOS parts, old iron.
I mean, this makes it all even more difficult. What's wrong with new transformers & tubes?

Cheers
Gerhard

IMHO no


there's nothing wrong with new transformers and tubes if you get good quality ones. I've only had 1 bad JJ tube and that was a rectifier tube that only lasted 4 months. Same with EHX, never had a bad one. Perhaps modern tubes don't last as long as the old ones but they're still relatively inexpensive and readily available.

Robben Ford uses JJ tubes.


the biggest difference in tone shaping you'll get is speaker/cab choice.

just my opinion so should be taken as such.


M

[rootz]

Find yourself some nice vintage iron from a Fender Twin. NOS tubes help too.

Is this really necessary? I read this all the time, over and over again, NOS parts, old iron.
I mean, this makes it all even more difficult. What's wrong with new transformers & tubes?

Cheers
Gerhard

Absolutely not necessary to get a good sounding fully functioning Dumble-like amp! I used Inmadout transformers in one build, old Peavey transformers in another. At least the first is not used by Dumble in any of his amps.

What you gain by using the transformers Dumble used is you have one less variable that could stray you away from genuine Dumble sounds. I have to make at least one very important side note though: tolerances in production and outcome for vintage iron might have been high enough to lead to a hearable difference. Probably that's what cloning in the strictest sense of the word is: copying the design and using the same materials where possible. That leads to the least amount of variables. Which you could want, because the impact of those variables is not always known that well.

Again that is not to say you can't build a terrific sounding amp with other resistors, transformers, etc. Heck, Two Rock, Fuchs, Amplified Nation all made a living out of that principle!

By the way, I use JJ tubes too. Sometimes affordable is what makes the difference for me. I gig my amps (at least, I used to do before Covid-19) and those seem to be durable, readily available and don't break the bank.

[rootz]

Oh and to get back to Marcus' comment about the cabs. I tried a Two Rock open back 2x12 this weekend with my latest amp. That has the 12-65 Two Rock (relabelled WGS ET65??) in them. It was a whole different beast and I loved it! I regularly use an oversized 1x12 with an EVM12L. Now I need a 2x12 too. I tried to shrink my collection of amps and cabs a bit, lol.

And to add to Tony's latest post. I tried a Squier Hello Kitty model a few weeks back with my amp. That's what people would call a beginners guitar I'd think. My friend dropped a Seymour Duncan in it though, not exactly sure which model. For such a cheap instrument is sounded (and played) amazing through my #124-ish amp. So obviously the right (whatever that is for you) pickups help too.

[norburybrook]

indeed

Larry Carlton used my #102 for a number of shows in London a few years ago and it sounded fantastic. When I plugged into the amp with the same settings and a 335 the amp sounded very different and I sounded nothing like him. the biggest part of your tone comes from YOU

this is an amp building forum so of course we all get wrapped up in the details as it's important from a building perspective, you have to be careful though if you're a player not to let that take you down a rabbit hole. The Mark Knopflers, Eric Clapton, Robben Ford, Larry carltons of the world know very little about the working of their equipment.

When Larry called me and I started to describe the 3 ODS amp's I had he had no idea what i was talking about so I just sent all 3 and let him choose.

the great thing about being here on TAG is you can build and experiment and see for yourself. It's fun and there's a huge wealth of information and knowledge here to be tapped, so fire up your iron and get started.



M

p.s. Rootz, yes the 2x12 is a great cab I have one with two vintage G12-65's. It's big and heavy though. Have you tried the sealed ported 1x12 EVM 12 like the Carlton cab? They have a nice punch to them.

[Colossal]

Oh and to get back to Marcus' comment about the cabs. I regularly use an oversized 1x12 with an EVM12L.

p.s. Rootz...have you tried the sealed ported 1x12 EVM 12 like the Carlton cab? They have a nice punch to them.

Rootz, is your 1x12 like the Two Rock design? Wide body with large oval back?

TR1x12.jpg

[martin manning]

Find yourself some nice vintage iron from a Fender Twin. NOS tubes help too.

Is this really necessary? I read this all the time, over and over again, NOS parts, old iron.
I mean, this makes it all even more difficult. What's wrong with new transformers & tubes?

If your thing is cloning amps using period correct parts, then it's necessary. If you want to replicate the electrical characteristics of the circuit, just use good quality parts made using materials and constructions similar to the originals. Capacitors have measurable differences in electrical behavior depending upon the dielectric used, and in some cases (most notably ceramic types) there is measurable harmonic distortion. In others (film types), it is unclear how the measured differences affect sound quality. Regarding claimed differences in sound between NOS vs. new parts, objective measurements are never introduced, and subjective listening tests are not well controlled. The ensuing arguments invariably degenerate to "I guess your ears just aren't good enough to hear it" vs. "Your mind is playing tricks on you." I will accept that quality control in current production tubes probably isn't what it used to be, so there may be some benefit in buying from sources that test and match them. However, when I have checked tubes sold as matched, or as having matched sections, I've been disappointed.

[talbany]

Back around 2000 when I started VVT we did a ton of repairs (Had a contract with a local music store) We would get in at least 4-5 repairs a week,did this for years. One of the popular mods was to replace the transformers. Mercury Mag's had just come out and it seemed like everyone and their mother wanted their transformers replaced. Most of these amps were fairly new but did get our share of Vintage amps as well. The difference in sound varied?(depending on the replacement type) Some were noticeable but not a huge difference. In other amps the mod was in your face obvious. These amps were generally brighter had more clarity and note definition and tighter lows (more Hi-Fi sounding would be a good way to describe it).
So obviously in a replacement you get to compare the sound of the 2 transformers on the same amp.
The output transformer usually had the largest effect,however, the power transformer did play a role.
IMO I wouldn't consider an ODS style amp to be that critical when it comes to transformers. I've heard quite a few wonderful sounding ODS builds using all kinds of different transformers.
As long as it's a high quality off the shelf Fender/Twin/Showman/Marshall type (or comparable)
100 watt size Iron should do fine just give some time to break in..
As far as the seasoned Iron goes? I love seasoned Iron thats already broken in and have used them in just about all my ODS builds.

IMO.. Nothing is really "necessary". Unless your aiming for a specific sound
Tony

[Lothy]

I love seasoned Iron thats already broken in and have used them in just about all my ODS builds.

That's another thing, that comes over me like the Tales of Beedle the Bard: Breaking in a transformer, or as Bob Glijka does with speaker cables.
What the heck must be broken in, within a piece of iron, wrapped with a wire? I mean, there is no moving part, what has to be moved to the right place over time, to sound good. On magnetized iron, magnetic field can get weak over time, but that's what you also could get with other specs.
Is that the case?

With speakers, this is a common procedure, and comprehensible to me.

Thanks for your patience with me...

Cheers
Gerhard

[drew]

Back around 2000 when I started VVT we did a ton of repairs (Had a contract with a local music store) We would get in at least 4-5 repairs a week,did this for years. One of the popular mods was to replace the transformers.

What happened to the old ones?

[talbany]

I love seasoned Iron thats already broken in and have used them in just about all my ODS builds.

That's another thing, that comes over me like the Tales of Beedle the Bard: Breaking in a transformer, or as Bob Glijka does with speaker cables.
What the heck must be broken in, within a piece of iron, wrapped with a wire? I mean, there is no moving part, what has to be moved to the right place over time, to sound good. On magnetized iron, magnetic field can get weak over time, but that's what you also could get with other specs.
Is that the case?

With speakers, this is a common procedure, and comprehensible to me.

Thanks for your patience with me...

Cheers
Gerhard

Hello Gerard

I don’t really know who Bob Glijka is? other than to say the first time I heard the term transformer break- in time was from Ken Fisher (Trainwreck) Trying to solve an issue with one of his Komet amps. Another one who recommended the practice was Sergio owner of Mercury Magnetics years ago.
“Sergio did suggest breaking in the new Axiom® transformer with 20 to 40 hours of hard playing time. He also said that this break-in period will get the transformer about halfway there to that 30 year seasoned tonality. “
https://www.mercurymagnetics.com/marsha ... n-part-ii/

AFAIK. Transformer break in is an unproven phenomenon. It’s a theory an opinion so file it along with the sound of a resistor. If your interested here is discussion done a while back on the subject.
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... er#p302630

Some of the professional builders I know who have built ODS style amps with seasoned (already broken in) iron for some customers are Bludotone,Fuchs,Sebago, Welagan and Dumble himself uses X-formers from other used amplifiers. It was Brandon who recommended I try old iron. AFAIK there are some other well known builders who use the practice and some that do not believe in it depending on their own experiences and controlled listening tests..

BTW. Under heavy loads output transformers do move/vibrate.
Hope this helps.
Tony

[talbany]

Back around 2000 when I started VVT we did a ton of repairs (Had a contract with a local music store) We would get in at least 4-5 repairs a week,did this for years. One of the popular mods was to replace the transformers.

What happened to the old ones?

If the owner didn't want his old transformer back or wanted a few bucks for it, I either used them in a personal build or for a friend our offered them to other customers who couldn't afford a new transformer. I still have a box full of some of those old transformers here..

[norburybrook]

Back around 2000 when I started VVT we did a ton of repairs (Had a contract with a local music store) We would get in at least 4-5 repairs a week,did this for years. One of the popular mods was to replace the transformers.

What happened to the old ones?

. I still have a box full of some of those old transformers here..

Time for a new build then Tony

M

[rootz]

Oh and to get back to Marcus' comment about the cabs. I regularly use an oversized 1x12 with an EVM12L.

p.s. Rootz...have you tried the sealed ported 1x12 EVM 12 like the Carlton cab? They have a nice punch to them.

Rootz, is your 1x12 like the Two Rock design? Wide body with large oval back?


TR1x12.jpg

Yes and no. Same outer dimensions. I did not have a good look on the TR 1x12 before I did mine. AFAIK TR uses birch plywood for the construction. I did. my cab is 18mm wood through, TR might use a 15mm baffle and back? The oval in the back of my cab is a lot smaller, like half of what TR does. And off course I use an EVM12L. As far as looks go: it's like a small 2x12.