Blues Deluxe to ODS #183 Thread

[pompeiisneaks]

Phil,


Don't get too worried about using those dales they sound great. Jelle has a stock of NOS resistors and obviously wants to sell them at a high price so he's not the best person to be objective about this at the present moment, much as I think he's a great amp builder

I built a #183 earlier this year I used all metal film resistors except where shown on the layout. I used HolCo's from Mouser and they're a great resistor and look cool as they're jet black take a look at my build thread.

That amp sold immediately to a great pro guitarist here in London who tried it one day shortly after I built it, I hadn;t intended to sell it but he was desperate to have it after playing it.

So the moral... this amp was built with all new parts and sounded amazing to a very good pro guitar player, not some bedroom or weekend warrior, but someone who earns his living playing guitar everyday and has two rock and other amps at his disposal, so don't get too worked up other NOS parts.

Hope your build goes well Phil

You can always swap parts later if you find some NOS bits and pieces in a yard sale or wherever


M

Not long ago Jelle sent me some of his "magic' special expensive parts to try so I stuck them in my high plate Skyliner to try. Some of them I liked and others I didn't care for and they definitely changed the amp and not to my liking. Another member here sent me some of the older NTE's like in 183 to try on the grid feeders on the PI. Same thing put them in the amp didn't care for them so out they came. When I put the old parts back in the amp sounded the way it did before the change. These parts were all Dumble approved parts and still, they came out of the amp. it's already been said that you can build a good sounding amp using other parts types the question is will the combination of all those parts yield the sound you are trying to achieve above all and if your goal is to try and get as close as you can to the sound of ODS ser# 183 the recommendation by many members here who have experience building amps using these parts and do hear a difference then you can either respect their option or ignore it and use whatever parts you want and hope you end up with an amp your happy with. I don't want to hope I want to know before I build it.

Tony

That's great info, thanks tony! I'm trying, but working within my limitations too If not I wouldn't be asking in the first place

heh.

I think at this point I'll order all the resistors based on the mouser parts list the original project provided. They're almost all metal films I think and a few carbon film etc. They're Vishay/Dale so quality of those I know are great.

Thanks all for the help!

~Phil

[talbany]

Phil,


Don't get too worried about using those dales they sound great. Jelle has a stock of NOS resistors and obviously wants to sell them at a high price so he's not the best person to be objective about this at the present moment, much as I think he's a great amp builder

I built a #183 earlier this year I used all metal film resistors except where shown on the layout. I used HolCo's from Mouser and they're a great resistor and look cool as they're jet black take a look at my build thread.

That amp sold immediately to a great pro guitarist here in London who tried it one day shortly after I built it, I hadn;t intended to sell it but he was desperate to have it after playing it.

So the moral... this amp was built with all new parts and sounded amazing to a very good pro guitar player, not some bedroom or weekend warrior, but someone who earns his living playing guitar everyday and has two rock and other amps at his disposal, so don't get too worked up other NOS parts.

Hope your build goes well Phil

You can always swap parts later if you find some NOS bits and pieces in a yard sale or wherever


M

Not long ago Jelle sent me some of his "magic' special expensive parts to try so I stuck them in my high plate Skyliner to try. Some of them I liked and others I didn't care for and they definitely changed the amp and not to my liking. Another member here sent me some of the older NTE's like in 183 to try on the grid feeders on the PI. Same thing put them in the amp didn't care for them so out they came. When I put the old parts back in the amp sounded the way it did before the change. These parts were all Dumble approved parts and still, they came out of the amp. it's already been said that you can build a good sounding amp using other parts types the question is will the combination of all those parts yield the sound you are trying to achieve above all and if your goal is to try and get as close as you can to the sound of ODS ser# 183 the recommendation by many members here who have experience building amps using these parts and do hear a difference then you can either respect their option or ignore it and use whatever parts you want and hope you end up with an amp your happy with. I don't want to hope I want to know before I build it.

Tony

That's great info, thanks tony! I'm trying, but working within my limitations too If not I wouldn't be asking in the first place

heh.

I think at this point I'll order all the resistors based on the mouser parts list the original project provided. They're almost all metal films I think and a few carbon film etc. They're Vishay/Dale so quality of those I know are great.

Thanks all for the help!

~Phil

Your welcome
I hope it works out

Tony

[xtian]

Enjoying the conversation, gentlemen. I've been playing my HRD->ODS conversion at gigs for the past few months. First, it's awesome. Delivers at low and high volume levels, squeezed into tiny corners, or out in the middle of large stages. I found the sweet spot by using Jazz mode with PAB engaged, with my "PAB trimmer" adjusted for 3-6dB of gain, mostly to boost the mids. Lately, I find myself pushing the SM 57 around on the grille, an inch this way, an inch that way. That's the final tone tweak--really tunes in the monitor mix in my IEM.

[ayan]

it's already been said that you can build a good sounding amp using other parts types the question is will the combination of all those parts yield the sound you are trying to achieve above all and if your goal is to try and get as close as you can to the sound of ODS ser# 183 the recommendation by many members here who have experience building amps using these parts and do hear a difference then you can either respect their opinion or ignore it and use whatever parts you want and hope you end up with an amp your happy with. I don't want to hope I want to know before I build it.

Tony

The last sentence is the key to this whole thing for me. If a Mouser resistor cost $0.50 (I think Dales at 47 cents at present) and the "real" one costs $2, I'd rather go with the latter. Building an amp from scratch is easy compared to gutting and rebuilding an amp -- where there may be some collateral damage because you graze something with the soldering iron, etc. Also, gutting and rebuilding will require additional time, solder, desoldering braid, etc.

[talbany]

Check! Apart from the 2 boxes of Dales I bought my total cost for caps and resistors for my low plate was around 45 bucks and still have parts left over for another amp. Best money I've spent. For me it's the time tracking all the parts down. Had I known Jelle was selling a set I would of been all over it.
BTW. MK3 Plates on E-bay costs me 2 bucks apiece

Tony

[pompeiisneaks]

it's already been said that you can build a good sounding amp using other parts types the question is will the combination of all those parts yield the sound you are trying to achieve above all and if your goal is to try and get as close as you can to the sound of ODS ser# 183 the recommendation by many members here who have experience building amps using these parts and do hear a difference then you can either respect their opinion or ignore it and use whatever parts you want and hope you end up with an amp your happy with. I don't want to hope I want to know before I build it.

Tony

The last sentences is the key to this whole thing for me. If a Mouser resistor cost $0.50 (I think Dales at 47 cents at present) and the "real" one costs $2, I'd rather go with the latter. Building an amp from scratch is easy compared to gutting and rebuilding an amp -- where there may be some collateral damage because you graze something with the soldering iron, etc. Also, gutting and rebuilding will require additional time, solder, desoldering braid, etc.

that may seem like 'nothing' at 4x the cost, but for a total of 77 resistors on this build, if you 4x

it comes down to

.5 x 77 = 38.50 in resistors
2 x 77 = 154$ in resistors.

That's a marked difference to me... maybe not for you. this is exactly my reason for going for 'new' vs nos.

~Phil

[talbany]

it's already been said that you can build a good sounding amp using other parts types the question is will the combination of all those parts yield the sound you are trying to achieve above all and if your goal is to try and get as close as you can to the sound of ODS ser# 183 the recommendation by many members here who have experience building amps using these parts and do hear a difference then you can either respect their opinion or ignore it and use whatever parts you want and hope you end up with an amp your happy with. I don't want to hope I want to know before I build it.

Tony

The last sentences is the key to this whole thing for me. If a Mouser resistor cost $0.50 (I think Dales at 47 cents at present) and the "real" one costs $2, I'd rather go with the latter. Building an amp from scratch is easy compared to gutting and rebuilding an amp -- where there may be some collateral damage because you graze something with the soldering iron, etc. Also, gutting and rebuilding will require additional time, solder, desoldering braid, etc.

that may seem like 'nothing' at 4x the cost, but for a total of 77 resistors on this build, if you 4x

it comes down to

.5 x 77 = 38.50 in resistors
2 x 77 = 154$ in resistors.

That's a marked difference to me... maybe not for you. this is exactly my reason for going for 'new' vs nos.

~Phil

Phil you don't need to buy 77 resistors here is a list of the most critical that have the greatest impact on the sound in order and from what I hear.

All the plates/Slope
OD entrance 220k and OD Feeders 100k/180k
All the grids including power tubes
around 15 in total.
You will be surprised at the difference just changing these out will make. Start small and if you like the direction it's taking you continue on to the others like the Cathodes and PI grid feeders. This is what I did at first. If you don't hear a difference or cannot tell then there you go.

Tony

[pompeiisneaks]

The last sentences is the key to this whole thing for me. If a Mouser resistor cost $0.50 (I think Dales at 47 cents at present) and the "real" one costs $2, I'd rather go with the latter. Building an amp from scratch is easy compared to gutting and rebuilding an amp -- where there may be some collateral damage because you graze something with the soldering iron, etc. Also, gutting and rebuilding will require additional time, solder, desoldering braid, etc.

that may seem like 'nothing' at 4x the cost, but for a total of 77 resistors on this build, if you 4x

it comes down to

.5 x 77 = 38.50 in resistors
2 x 77 = 154$ in resistors.

That's a marked difference to me... maybe not for you. this is exactly my reason for going for 'new' vs nos.

~Phil

Phil you don't need to buy 77 resistors here is a list of the most critical that have the greatest impact on the sound in order and from what I hear.

All the plates/Slope
OD entrance 220k and OD Feeders 100k/180k
All the grids including power tubes
around 15 in total.
You will be surprised at the difference just changing these out will make. Start small and if you like the direction it's taking you continue on to the others like the Cathodes and PI grid feeders. This is what I did at first. If you don't hear a difference or cannot tell then there you go.

Tony

I think that may be a great idea for me to try out, I finally pulled the trigger like 2 mins ago and ordered based on the BOM from jazzguitargimp and xtian, so I might have to give that a try after I've built the amp and see how it sounds, and then do a comparison.

Where's a reputable vendor for NTE resistors? I see many on Ebay, for varying prices, just wondering if it's a crap shoot or if there's some out there that are better than others?

Thanks,

~Phil

[talbany]

that may seem like 'nothing' at 4x the cost, but for a total of 77 resistors on this build, if you 4x

it comes down to

.5 x 77 = 38.50 in resistors
2 x 77 = 154$ in resistors.

That's a marked difference to me... maybe not for you. this is exactly my reason for going for 'new' vs nos.

~Phil

Phil you don't need to buy 77 resistors here is a list of the most critical that have the greatest impact on the sound in order and from what I hear.

All the plates/Slope
OD entrance 220k and OD Feeders 100k/180k
All the grids including power tubes
around 15 in total.
You will be surprised at the difference just changing these out will make. Start small and if you like the direction it's taking you continue on to the others like the Cathodes and PI grid feeders. This is what I did at first. If you don't hear a difference or cannot tell then there you go.

Tony

I think that may be a great idea for me to try out, I finally pulled the trigger like 2 mins ago and ordered based on the BOM from jazzguitargimp and xtian, so I might have to give that a try after I've built the amp and see how it sounds, and then do a comparison.

Where's a reputable vendor for NTE resistors? I see many on Ebay, for varying prices, just wondering if it's a crap shoot or if there's some out there that are better than others?

Thanks,

~Phil

Phil
Here is what I recommend doing. If you really want to go down this road to at first see if you like the sound of the NOS stuff. Contact Jelle see what he has and recommends and buy only what you need to do 1 amp. It may cost a little bit more but your saving a bunch of time and hassle scrounging around the net and buying packs of resistors you may never use.If you like the way some of these resistors sound and want to use them in other amps then you can start scrounging around like the rest of us do

The only way to do this is just to try them in an amp you built. No one is going to write you paper saying Phil your going to love the resistors they are great!.You just have to get in there and do it for yourself like the rest of us. I wish it were that simple.

Tony

[sluckey]

Where's a reputable vendor for NTE resistors? I see many on Ebay, for varying prices, just wondering if it's a crap shoot or if there's some out there that are better than others?

In the '80s you could walk into most any electronics supply store and find a wall full of NTE resistors. Nothing special about them. No mojo. They were just widely avaliable.

[talbany]

Nothing special about them.

I don't know about this? if you listen to Matt playing 183 here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evycl8o7PNs
183 has a unique character in the way it breaks up in overdrive. It's an aggressive amp with a little grit, still no harsh frequency's ( 1k or so) so it's aggressive without the buzzy thing . This is IMO an artifact of those NTE's. I am more into the glassy top end thing. So if you like the Overdrive side of 183 then the NTE's would have your "Mojo" If you want something more in the way of this sound then their would obviously be " Nothing special about them" to you and would most likely prefer the smoother sound of the NOS Dales.
(Overdrive starts 1:50 in to it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evycl8o7PNs

They were just widely avaliable.

Yeah well not anymore

Tony

[norburybrook]

Don't get too worried about using those dales they sound great. Jelle has a stock of NOS resistors and obviously wants to sell them at a high price so he's not the best person to be objective about this at the present moment, much as I think he's a great amp builder

M

I believe there's a chance you may not have all the facts straight, Marcus. To the best of my knowledge, Jelle doesn't have any NTEs for sale. [ He has carbon films that I've already talked about in my own thread about my amp rebuilds. ] The comment Phil was referring to was made on the Face Book Dumble amp clones and D-style pedals group. Look for the thread and you see that Jelle said, about a possible 183 build:

"Dumble never used Dales in high plate amps like 183."

True statement as far as I know.

And:

"My point is that it won't do '183' with those Dales."

Whether or not you agree with these two statements is what it is. However, suggesting Jelle's comment was self serving is, if nothing else, inaccurate.

G.

Gill,

Yes you're right it was late and I Posted quickly, the resistors weren't NTE but Draloric so apologies. They were $80 though with postage for just the signal path resistors which didn't include plate resistors which according to people here are the main ones to change, so I thought better of it.

It was no dig a Jelle I think her's a great builder I was just pointing out he's now a professional amp maker and has a stock of NOS parts to sell and make a thing of in his own builds so isn't objective as he's got skin in the game as it were when it comes to these discussions. Telling Phil they'll 'suck' just isn't true so I was really responding to that. My amp that Larry Carlton used and enthused over used new Dale resistors in a high plate amp.




Phil, I'll make a point here; you say your builds have sounded less than stellar, I know you're not a pro guitar player and to be honest these amps need to be played by someone who know's their stuff for them even to start to sound good. I've heard demo's of the real thing that sounded pretty awful to me because the guy demoing wasn't that great. Please don't take this in anyway as a slight on you or your playing I'm just wanting to perhaps explain why you think your builds might not have sounded as good as you'd hoped for and why you might be chasing it through NOS parts etc.

I don't think my amps are anything special in the parts or build department but because they've been used by great players like Larry C, Joey Landreth and Alan Darby at crossroads recently they sound amazing.

here's Joey Landreth playing one of my high plate ODS amps with NEW dale plate resistors..now tell me that's NOT a great sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84COJ6rLFuw



M

Again, good luck with the build.

[10thTx]

I'll throw this in the mix for anyone wanting to consider trying out other resistors. One of my D-inspired amps (but not a clone) had the Vishay Dale RN65 resistors. I tried some of these
2w carbon film Kiwame resistors on the plates of the clean stage, OD stage, FX loop and LTPI. I was hoping that given they were 2 watt resistors that they would lower floor noise some which I don't think they did. My understanding is they may be the same as the KOA Speer resistors?

https://www.partsconnexion.com/kiwame-2 ... stors.html

I do think the amp is a little sweeter musically after installing them and perhaps sustained a tad more? I personally don't hear the RN65's as harsh but I do think they are somewhat brighter then the kiwames. Since it's not a D clone, I acknowledge this more of an apples to oranges comparison.

With respect, 10thtx

I have also purchased 6 of these TKD metal film 2w resistors to experiment with at some point, but haven't gotten around to it yet. They are much larger in size then the kiwame resistor even though they are both 2 watt resistors. The size could be a factor on a tight layout board.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/tkd-cm2- ... stors.html

[martin manning]

My advice to anyone wanting to build a D-style amp is use quality parts of the right type, i.e. MF resistors, polyester film or ceramic caps as specified, and drive on. Some recent discussion around parts selection suggests that using NOS vs. current production parts will make or break the sound of the amp, and IMO that is just not true. There are so many other things, beginning with the player, that influence the tone of the amp that any small differences in these parts that do exist will be lost in the mix.

[pompeiisneaks]

Thanks all.

marcus, I don't recall saying my amps didn't have good tone. I just read back a few pages and can't see me saying it, but if I did, then I didn't mean it, what I'm frustrated with is my inability to make beautiful looking builds like I often see others do. I also seem to find ways of having odd noises and t hings I don't like, but they're not issues with the amp's 'tone' but with my build skill that I've been trying to improve. There are several amps I've built that always sound amazing to me.

my Vox AC30/4 sounds incredible. I used all xicon caps and other low cost components in that amp. It's my favorite amp I've ever owned possibly.
My Tweedle Dee Deluxe. I just used either RND65's or carbon films in that one everywhere, and 715P's and it sounds incredible to me as well.

As for my playing. I understand I'm not a pro, but I've been in live playing bands for probably close to 10 years total time and played guitar heavily since I was about 20. I hope my playing in videos doesn't sound like I'm some kind of hack. I'm always self conscious about it because I hear players like joey and feel like a total scrub. but I digress, probably my feelbads got poked.

I'll post a new video this week with progress etc. Hopefully my amp building skills continue to improve, I think this will be my 9th or 10th build, I lose track

I've got the parts on order, they should be arriving this weekend if all goes well.

Hopefully it won't suck.

~Phil