Blues Deluxe to ODS #183 Thread

[pompeiisneaks]

Hey Phil,

Just watched your video, nice project!
As I built a HRM with a defeat switch, I must say I enjoy the non HRM sound more than the compressed HRM.
Since your PCB has a jumper to bypass the HRM tone stack it would be fairly easy to add the switch. I think it opens up the sound a lot and offers a lot of flexibility.

My 2cents

Fred.

Interesting, GOOD idea, I think I will!

~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

Okay another question,

I'm ordering the parts finally, and realized I'm confused. Most of my builds I've used Carbon Film resistors, and then some RN65 metal films in a few choice locations like plate resistors etc, OTOH Jelle indicated on FB taht those are BAD for a 183. Also it seems like a LOT of the resistors on there are metal film not carbon? I own more than half of the needed resistors in carbon film, but is it really worth it to buy them all as metal film instead like the BOM implies with this and the #183 layout images (They show blue for what Im guessing are MF and then brown for CF?)

~Phil

[JD0x0]

Okay another question,

I'm ordering the parts finally, and realized I'm confused. Most of my builds I've used Carbon Film resistors, and then some RN65 metal films in a few choice locations like plate resistors etc, OTOH Jelle indicated on FB taht those are BAD for a 183. Also it seems like a LOT of the resistors on there are metal film not carbon? I own more than half of the needed resistors in carbon film, but is it really worth it to buy them all as metal film instead like the BOM implies with this and the #183 layout images (They show blue for what Im guessing are MF and then brown for CF?)

~Phil

Metal film is generally more accurate and tend to be quieter on the noise floor. Probably not going to make or break the amp, IMO.

it looks like the few CF used in 183 were mainly for grid stoppers. Maybe Dumble chose CF for their inductive properties, vs MF. Also, accuracy is less critical for grid stoppers. I've used RN65D's throughout my builds and haven't had any problems. Dead low noise floor too, and you know those wont be drifting anywhere over time.

[ayan]

Okay another question,

I'm ordering the parts finally, and realized I'm confused. Most of my builds I've used Carbon Film resistors, and then some RN65 metal films in a few choice locations like plate resistors etc, OTOH Jelle indicated on FB taht those are BAD for a 183. Also it seems like a LOT of the resistors on there are metal film not carbon? I own more than half of the needed resistors in carbon film, but is it really worth it to buy them all as metal film instead like the BOM implies with this and the #183 layout images (They show blue for what Im guessing are MF and then brown for CF?)

~Phil

Phil, I'm obviously not Jelle but I also read what he commented on FB. I believe his point was that 183 is what it is in part because of the NTE MF resistors used throughout that amp. Furthermore, Jelle stated that no high plate amp he'd ever seen/known of had used Dale plate resistors, and he's correct as far as I know. I don't think that means the current Dales are BAD, but rather, that if you want to replicate an amp you should try to get the correct parts for that build. Of course, good luck finding those old type of NTEs. I recently thought I found a place that carried them, based on the pictures on their website. I bought quite a few of them (100K, 220K, 150K, 1.5K, 2.2K, 3.3K, etc.) but when I got the package in the mail, they were all the dull looking metal oxide type of NTEs. I called the place to get a return authorization number and left a message since no one picked up the phone. Before they called me back, they called NTE. When this guy calls me back, he tells me that the NTE rep assured him what they had sent me was electrically equivalent to what's shown on their website. I explained that this was for an audio application, etc., and got my money back, shipping and all.

I don't know what to recommend that's readily available out there that could be a close equivalent to the NTEs. Most people have had luck -- generally speaking, not specifically with regards to cloning 183 -- with KOA Speer MFs which are available from Mouser and low cost, maybe you could try those. There are a couple of different types, maybe some folks can chime with regards to which ones might be preferable.

Gil

[pompeiisneaks]

Okay another question,

I'm ordering the parts finally, and realized I'm confused. Most of my builds I've used Carbon Film resistors, and then some RN65 metal films in a few choice locations like plate resistors etc, OTOH Jelle indicated on FB taht those are BAD for a 183. Also it seems like a LOT of the resistors on there are metal film not carbon? I own more than half of the needed resistors in carbon film, but is it really worth it to buy them all as metal film instead like the BOM implies with this and the #183 layout images (They show blue for what Im guessing are MF and then brown for CF?)

~Phil

Phil, I'm obviously not Jelle but I also read what he commented on FB. I believe his point was that 183 is what it is in part because of the NTE MF resistors used throughout that amp. Furthermore, Jelle stated that no high plate amp he'd ever seen/known of had used Dale plate resistors, and he's correct as far as I know. I don't think that means the current Dales are BAD, but rather, that if you want to replicate an amp you should try to get the correct parts for that build. Of course, good luck finding those old type of NTEs. I recently thought I found a place that carried them, based on the pictures on their website. I bought quite a few of them (100K, 220K, 150K, 1.5K, 2.2K, 3.3K, etc.) but when I got the package in the mail, they were all the dull looking metal oxide type of NTEs. I called the place to get a return authorization number and left a message since no one picked up the phone. Before they called me back, they called NTE. When this guy calls me back, he tells me that the NTE rep assured him what they had sent me was electrically equivalent to what's shown on their website. I explained that this was for an audio application, etc., and got my money back, shipping and all.

I don't know what to recommend that's readily available out there that could be a close equivalent to the NTEs. Most people have had luck -- generally speaking, not specifically with regards to cloning 183 -- with KOA Speer MFs which are available from Mouser and low cost, maybe you could try those. There are a couple of different types, maybe some folks can chime with regards to which ones might be preferable.

Gil

Yeah I get that, but I personally don't have the money or time to go on a chase for unobtanium parts. I'd rather build it and get it working with new stock high quality parts. I guess the best way I can word it is "Why would RN65 suck if he used them on other amps?" I could have sworn I've seen and used them because other amps called for them.

Add on to that, my hearing is going, that I don't know I'd be able to tell the difference anyway.

At any rate, I appreciate the responses. I was aware of hte noise differences, but I'd also come to the understanding (maybe flawed) that carbon film are often better than metal film as they can leave an amp a bit 'sterile' and the carbon film ones add a nice amount of 2nd harmonics.

Either way, I guess I'll go with the Metal Films in the spots as called out in the amp, maybe that's part of the sound of this amp is the more super clean cleans and then the OD does what it needs to

~Phil

[ayan]

Yeah I get that, but I personally don't have the money or time to go on a chase for unobtanium parts. I'd rather build it and get it working with new stock high quality parts. I guess the best way I can word it is "Why would RN65 suck if he used them on other amps?" I could have sworn I've seen and used them because other amps called for them.

Add on to that, my hearing is going, that I don't know I'd be able to tell the difference anyway.

At any rate, I appreciate the responses. I was aware of hte noise differences, but I'd also come to the understanding (maybe flawed) that carbon film are often better than metal film as they can leave an amp a bit 'sterile' and the carbon film ones add a nice amount of 2nd harmonics.

Either way, I guess I'll go with the Metal Films in the spots as called out in the amp, maybe that's part of the sound of this amp is the more super clean cleans and then the OD does what it needs to

~Phil

For what it's worth, if I remember correctly the KOA Speers are much cheaper than the Dales. Dumble used the Dales only on the plates of 100K amps, like 124. He may have used them in a couple of cathode spots in other amps, and I believe I saw one amp where he used the Dales as bias feed resistors. On the other hand, 183 uses a whole bunch of metal films, everywhere. Maybe you'd be better off not using the Dales in that fashion. I hope someone else can chime in with a more informative post about this.

G.

[pompeiisneaks]

Yeah I get that, but I personally don't have the money or time to go on a chase for unobtanium parts. I'd rather build it and get it working with new stock high quality parts. I guess the best way I can word it is "Why would RN65 suck if he used them on other amps?" I could have sworn I've seen and used them because other amps called for them.

Add on to that, my hearing is going, that I don't know I'd be able to tell the difference anyway.

At any rate, I appreciate the responses. I was aware of hte noise differences, but I'd also come to the understanding (maybe flawed) that carbon film are often better than metal film as they can leave an amp a bit 'sterile' and the carbon film ones add a nice amount of 2nd harmonics.

Either way, I guess I'll go with the Metal Films in the spots as called out in the amp, maybe that's part of the sound of this amp is the more super clean cleans and then the OD does what it needs to

~Phil

For what it's worth, if I remember correctly the KOA Speers are much cheaper than the Dales. Dumble used the Dales only on the plates of 100K amps, like 124. He may have used them in a couple of cathode spots in other amps, and I believe I saw one amp where he used the Dales as bias feed resistors. On the other hand, 183 uses a whole bunch of metal films, everywhere. Maybe you'd be better off not using the Dales in that fashion. I hope someone else can chime in with a more informative post about this.

G.

Yeah I guess for me, as an engineer (started as a civil engineer that had to take mechanics of materials, and other complex physics classes etc, then went on to computer engineering) I need concrete data often to convince me something has a reason. It's hard for me to just accept that a known resistor, make to milspec for longer quality and durability etc. that's often used by many and considered 'high quality' is not going to work without understanding the 'why'

I understand shoddily made parts suck and can add problems to any build.

This is why I try my best to learn what are considered high quality parts, and what are not. I've definitely used KOA Speer resistors in previous builds. I just keep feeling like I get consistently inconsistent information about they why's and hows of the 'magic' part of this, and yet I'm told by some that there's no magic parts, and the lesser expensive parts have always worked perfectly for them for decades..

It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma, covered with unicorn poop.

All things I detest

~Phil

[ayan]

Yeah I guess for me, as an engineer (started as a civil engineer that had to take mechanics of materials, and other complex physics classes etc, then went on to computer engineering) I need concrete data often to convince me something has a reason. It's hard for me to just accept that a known resistor, make to milspec for longer quality and durability etc. that's often used by many and considered 'high quality' is not going to work without understanding the 'why'

I understand shoddily made parts suck and can add problems to any build.

This is why I try my best to learn what are considered high quality parts, and what are not. I've definitely used KOA Speer resistors in previous builds. I just keep feeling like I get consistently inconsistent information about they why's and hows of the 'magic' part of this, and yet I'm told by some that there's no magic parts, and the lesser expensive parts have always worked perfectly for them for decades..

It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma, covered with unicorn poop.

All things I detest

~Phil

For what it's worth -- which in my opinion is not much with regards to this conversation -- I am a degreed electrical engineer and I've been working in industry for 33+ years. The data you reference, for me, was sonic quality and assessed by my ears. Hardly adequate ammunition to make a compelling argument to anyone, with perhaps Martin Manning being the only exception. The thing is, I believe what we're looking for in a guitar amp are certain characteristics that are decidedly not related to linearity or pureness. So you may get the best that money can buy in terms of stability, reliability, durability, etc., but perhaps the part is "perfect" and yet not capable giving you that bit of grease needed to make things musical in the same way as the original piece (in this case, Dumble ODS S/N 183). Using "high quality" parts, broadly speaking, exclusively will not likely yield a desired result, which is not to say that it will not yield a good result -- but it will probably be different. If it did, just about any type of Dumble clone would sound the same, right? However, I think most of us will agree that is not the case.

G.

[pompeiisneaks]

Yeah I guess for me, as an engineer (started as a civil engineer that had to take mechanics of materials, and other complex physics classes etc, then went on to computer engineering) I need concrete data often to convince me something has a reason. It's hard for me to just accept that a known resistor, make to milspec for longer quality and durability etc. that's often used by many and considered 'high quality' is not going to work without understanding the 'why'

I understand shoddily made parts suck and can add problems to any build.

This is why I try my best to learn what are considered high quality parts, and what are not. I've definitely used KOA Speer resistors in previous builds. I just keep feeling like I get consistently inconsistent information about they why's and hows of the 'magic' part of this, and yet I'm told by some that there's no magic parts, and the lesser expensive parts have always worked perfectly for them for decades..

It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma, covered with unicorn poop.

All things I detest

~Phil

For what it's worth -- which in my opinion is not much with regards to this conversation -- I am a degreed electrical engineer and I've been working in industry for 33+ years. The data you reference, for me, was sonic quality and assessed by my ears. Hardly adequate ammunition to make a compelling argument to anyone, with perhaps Martin Manning being the only exception. The thing is, I believe what we're looking for in a guitar amp are certain characteristics that are decidedly not related to linearity or pureness. So you may get the best that money can buy in terms of stability, reliability, durability, etc., but perhaps the part is "perfect" and yet not capable giving you that bit of grease needed to make things musical in the same way as the original piece (in this case, Dumble ODS S/N 183). Using "high quality" parts, broadly speaking, exclusively will not likely yield a desired result, which is not to say that it will not yield a good result -- but it will probably be different. If it did, just about any type of Dumble clone would sound the same, right? However, I think most of us will agree that is not the case.

G.

I agree that is definitely not the case, BUT, is it the parts? or is it the skill in building the amp? Or one of potentially thousands of other variables you can think of and not think of that go into making an amp.

I definitely can't answer that question, nor do I mean to derail my build thread into a debate on it. Just trying to get concrete answers on why RND65 metal films won't work but NTE will? (or any other specific brand of them) Also I find it odd, but from what I thought I understood, is that NTE just buys up other peoples components and rebrands them as NTE no? Maybe that's only some components?

Also, the theory that some parts, albeit not the 'best quality, but give the sound wanted' is a good idea conceptually, I get that too, but since the quantity and price of those is ridiculous, why don't we try to find replacements that are newer/new and fit the bill? I'm guessing even HAD doesn't have an unlimited supply of the stuff he used to use, but he's still building and modding amps for people somehow.

~Phil

[ayan]

I agree that is definitely not the case, BUT, is it the parts? or is it the skill in building the amp? Or one of potentially thousands of other variables you can think of and not think of that go into making an amp.

I definitely can't answer that question, nor do I mean to derail my build thread into a debate on it. Just trying to get concrete answers on why RND65 metal films won't work but NTE will? (or any other specific brand of them) Also I find it odd, but from what I thought I understood, is that NTE just buys up other peoples components and rebrands them as NTE no? Maybe that's only some components?

Also, the theory that some parts, albeit not the 'best quality, but give the sound wanted' is a good idea conceptually, I get that too, but since the quantity and price of those is ridiculous, why don't we try to find replacements that are newer/new and fit the bill? I'm guessing even HAD doesn't have an unlimited supply of the stuff he used to use, but he's still building and modding amps for people somehow.

~Phil

When everything else stays the same -- chassis, boards, transformers, cables, hardware, master builder, etc. -- and you replace some resistors and the sound changes, I think empirical correlation is your (only) friend. Also, I'm not sure why, when speaking about the use of Dales, you use terms such as "suck" or "won't work." If you wire it correctly, the amp will work, guaranteed, and probably it will work very well and sound good. I believe it would sound closer to the original -- for good or bad, as the case may be -- if you used the same parts, though. That's the only thing at issue here as far as I'm concerned. It is true that NTE buys and rebrands stuff, but the NTE resistors used in 183 are specific and could be bought in blister packs at many places, even at Fry's Electronics, up until some 15 years ago. I used a bunch of them in my earlier amps, shown in the picture below.

[norburybrook]

Phil,


Don't get too worried about using those dales they sound great. Jelle has a stock of NOS resistors and obviously wants to sell them at a high price so he's not the best person to be objective about this at the present moment, much as I think he's a great amp builder

I built a #183 earlier this year I used all metal film resistors except where shown on the layout. I used HolCo's from Mouser and they're a great resistor and look cool as they're jet black take a look at my build thread.

That amp sold immediately to a great pro guitarist here in London who tried it one day shortly after I built it, I hadn;t intended to sell it but he was desperate to have it after playing it.

So the moral... this amp was built with all new parts and sounded amazing to a very good pro guitar player, not some bedroom or weekend warrior, but someone who earns his living playing guitar everyday and has two rock and other amps at his disposal, so don't get too worked up other NOS parts.

Hope your build goes well Phil

You can always swap parts later if you find some NOS bits and pieces in a yard sale or wherever


M

[pompeiisneaks]

I agree that is definitely not the case, BUT, is it the parts? or is it the skill in building the amp? Or one of potentially thousands of other variables you can think of and not think of that go into making an amp.

I definitely can't answer that question, nor do I mean to derail my build thread into a debate on it. Just trying to get concrete answers on why RND65 metal films won't work but NTE will? (or any other specific brand of them) Also I find it odd, but from what I thought I understood, is that NTE just buys up other peoples components and rebrands them as NTE no? Maybe that's only some components?

Also, the theory that some parts, albeit not the 'best quality, but give the sound wanted' is a good idea conceptually, I get that too, but since the quantity and price of those is ridiculous, why don't we try to find replacements that are newer/new and fit the bill? I'm guessing even HAD doesn't have an unlimited supply of the stuff he used to use, but he's still building and modding amps for people somehow.

~Phil

When everything else stays the same -- chassis, boards, transformers, cables, hardware, master builder, etc. -- and you replace some resistors and the sound changes, I think empirical correlation is your (only) friend. Also, I'm not sure why, when speaking about the use of Dales, you use terms such as "suck" or "won't work." If you wire it correctly, the amp will work, guaranteed, and probably it will work very well and sound good. I believe it would sound closer to the original -- for good or bad, as the case may be -- if you used the same parts, though. That's the only thing at issue here as far as I'm concerned. It is true that NTE buys and rebrands stuff, but the NTE resistors used in 183 are specific and could be bought in blister packs at many places, even at Fry's Electronics, up until some 15 years ago. I used a bunch of them in my earlier amps, shown in the picture below.

well, as an engineer, I understand that the simple act of soldering and desoldering a component means you've changed the amp somewhat, how much is hard to quantify, but why test jigs and other kinds of setups are built to eliminate that kind of destructive change to an amp. Did you maybe do a better or worse job of soldering when you replaced the components? Did the heat of the solder change the way the nearby components reacted to the circuit, etc? We're already talking about super subtle changes, and those kinds of changes are extremely hard to quantify scientifically. You can still argue that point, as it's opinion, and not only do I value your opinion, I think it has a decent amount of merit. Just not enough for me to spend extra hours or days finding said components, and pay 2 to 10 times the price for them.

~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

Phil,


Don't get too worried about using those dales they sound great. Jelle has a stock of NOS resistors and obviously wants to sell them at a high price so he's not the best person to be objective about this at the present moment, much as I think he's a great amp builder

I built a #183 earlier this year I used all metal film resistors except where shown on the layout. I used HolCo's from Mouser and they're a great resistor and look cool as they're jet black take a look at my build thread.

That amp sold immediately to a great pro guitarist here in London who tried it one day shortly after I built it, I hadn;t intended to sell it but he was desperate to have it after playing it.

So the moral... this amp was built with all new parts and sounded amazing to a very good pro guitar player, not some bedroom or weekend warrior, but someone who earns his living playing guitar everyday and has two rock and other amps at his disposal, so don't get too worked up other NOS parts.

Hope your build goes well Phil

You can always swap parts later if you find some NOS bits and pieces in a yard sale or wherever


M

Thanks Marcus! I'm glad to hear your point of view, it comforts me. I've always been torn on this type of discussion because I feel my builds end up being less than stellar, and I want them to improve each time, and I try to overly debate every aspect of what I'm doing

~Phil

[ayan]

Don't get too worried about using those dales they sound great. Jelle has a stock of NOS resistors and obviously wants to sell them at a high price so he's not the best person to be objective about this at the present moment, much as I think he's a great amp builder

M

I believe there's a chance you may not have all the facts straight, Marcus. To the best of my knowledge, Jelle doesn't have any NTEs for sale. [ He has carbon films that I've already talked about in my own thread about my amp rebuilds. ] The comment Phil was referring to was made on the Face Book Dumble amp clones and D-style pedals group. Look for the thread and you see that Jelle said, about a possible 183 build:

"Dumble never used Dales in high plate amps like 183."

True statement as far as I know.

And:

"My point is that it won't do '183' with those Dales."

Whether or not you agree with these two statements is what it is. However, suggesting Jelle's comment was self serving is, if nothing else, inaccurate.

G.

[talbany]

Phil,


Don't get too worried about using those dales they sound great. Jelle has a stock of NOS resistors and obviously wants to sell them at a high price so he's not the best person to be objective about this at the present moment, much as I think he's a great amp builder

I built a #183 earlier this year I used all metal film resistors except where shown on the layout. I used HolCo's from Mouser and they're a great resistor and look cool as they're jet black take a look at my build thread.

That amp sold immediately to a great pro guitarist here in London who tried it one day shortly after I built it, I hadn;t intended to sell it but he was desperate to have it after playing it.

So the moral... this amp was built with all new parts and sounded amazing to a very good pro guitar player, not some bedroom or weekend warrior, but someone who earns his living playing guitar everyday and has two rock and other amps at his disposal, so don't get too worked up other NOS parts.

Hope your build goes well Phil

You can always swap parts later if you find some NOS bits and pieces in a yard sale or wherever


M

Not long ago Jelle sent me some of his "magic' special expensive parts to try so I stuck them in my high plate Skyliner to try. Some of them I liked and others I didn't care for and they definitely changed the amp and not to my liking. Another member here sent me some of the older NTE's like in 183 to try on the grid feeders on the PI. Same thing put them in the amp didn't care for them so out they came. When I put the old parts back in the amp sounded the way it did before the change. These parts were all Dumble approved parts and still, they came out of the amp. it's already been said that you can build a good sounding amp using other parts types the question is will the combination of all those parts yield the sound you are trying to achieve above all and if your goal is to try and get as close as you can to the sound of ODS ser# 183 the recommendation by many members here who have experience building amps using these parts and do hear a difference then you can either respect their opinion or ignore it and use whatever parts you want and hope you end up with an amp your happy with. I don't want to hope I want to know before I build it.

Tony