It's really hard to say because even listening back to the two files you can convince yourself they're the same or different each pass I've just repeated the test again in mono/dry and the two files are very different .I agree that i can hear a difference in your files at the spot we mentioned, I just wanted to do a control to put my mind at rest it wasn't something else causing the difference.....I'm now more confused
here take a look. these were done less than 30 seconds apart.
Loop 3.jpg
loop 4#.jpg
Same spot to the sample, dry mono files looped 30 seconds apart.
M
How long is the loop you've used? Might it be that the sample size (i.e. loop length) is too short for the frequency analysis (is it FFT analysis?) to produce consistent results?
Just a wild guess...
Might also be that you see small changes in the mains voltage. Just another wild guess
Marcus what I see in your spectrum is the harder spikes remain the same but the ones that are 20-30dB less are very different.
The ones on my recording show the differences on the louder parts also.
Or do you read them differently?
the frequency plots are a snapshot at a particular random time point but the same place on each file. The whole files are about 10 seconds long. The slightly fluctuating mains power might be a good point.
Erwin, if you look at your files the three large descending peaks around 1.8-2.2k are very similar. Some of the differences in my stereo files are greater. I suppose it doesn't matter where or what they are it's clear the same loop recorded at different times has a quantifiable difference in sound.
Does temperature of components add to sound changes? that was my first thought.
Temperature coefficient is intended to capture the change of resistance with temperature. A current spike could cause the temperature of the resistive material increase much more than the average bulk, but when I traced the resistors a pulsed (~1ms) technique was used. If something like that was going on the traces would be curved. Both new and old showed linear results. Typical 100ppm/C coefficient means the value changes 1% over 100C.
From a practical point of view (if such a point of view should be of interest in the context of this topic):
Then you've got the Dale RN65 plate resistors on V1 & V2 as well as part of the polarity splitter. These are very obviously 1970's vintage as evidenced by the bulbous end caps. If they are 100K's on the plates, which is likely, this is a value that is essentially impossible to source with 1970's date codes.
a) the statement quoted above is correct
b) a psychoacoustic study on this topic proves that a vast majority of players and listeners prefer the tone of Dumble clones built with old Dale RN65D 100K resistors.
What then should be the recommendation for builders (hobbyists and professionals) from such a practical point of view?
Max wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:48 pm
From a practical point of view (if such a point of view should be of interest in the context of this topic):
Then you've got the Dale RN65 plate resistors on V1 & V2 as well as part of the polarity splitter. These are very obviously 1970's vintage as evidenced by the bulbous end caps. If they are 100K's on the plates, which is likely, this is a value that is essentially impossible to source with 1970's date codes.
a) the statement quoted above is correct
b) a psychoacoustic study on this topic proves that a vast majority of players and listeners prefer the tone of Dumble clones built with old Dale RN65D 100K resistors.
What then should be the recommendation for builders (hobbyists and professionals) from such a practical point of view?
well the small sample in this thread it's 50/50 with what people prefer. Just use what you can get, seriously, your choice of tubes and speaker and your recording/gigging environment will make more difference than the plate resistors being NOS or new. In a recording you'd be surprised what get's eq'd out or boosted on electric guitar tracks to make them sit/sound great in a mix
yes i can. personally I'd go with the sound of new resistors as I've found that in isolation if a sound sounds pleasing to you it will generally need to be slightly brighter to achieve the same result when mixed in with drums and Bass etc in a live or studio situation and the extra 'air' and presence around 1k is exactly where you will get that. Also tone is very personal to the player/listener. i've lost count how many times I've listened to something where someones gone, wow what a great tone and I've thought it was horrible
I do like Erwin's tone with this amp either with NOS or new resistors however. I also like Tony's music man dumble low plate amp too, that's a great sound that he's used his knowlefge and parts bin to create an amp i think is great, so there are people who's tone you can identify with as great tone.
Another variable not to be overlooked is the player's internal feedback loop. We play these amps as an extension of our instruments. The way we play into them is a direct response to what we are hearing. I can only assume that Erwin was playing live into the original resistors while recording the loop. This would directly impact what was being milked or held, etc.. Acoustic feedback in the original recording may also have favored the original resistors making them "perform" better aided by the input from the player.
Just a thought... Very interesting thread.
stelligan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:46 am
Another variable not to be overlooked is the player's internal feedback loop. We play these amps as an extension of our instruments. The way we play into them is a direct response to what we are hearing. I can only assume that Erwin was playing live into the original resistors while recording the loop. This would directly impact what was being milked or held, etc.. Acoustic feedback in the original recording may also have favored the original resistors making them "perform" better aided by the input from the player.
Just a thought... Very interesting thread.
That's true, but he also used a looper to replay the exact same phrasing, pick attack, bending etc, so it was 100% cloned performance.
norburybrook wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:54 pm ... Just use what you can get, seriously, your choice of tubes and speaker and your recording/gigging environment will make more difference than the plate resistors being NOS or new. ...
In my opinion it's indeed that simple.
And - based on my personal experience with some original Dumble amps built between around 1970 and 1995 - I think, that Jelle is right, when he assumes, that Alexander Dumble continually (be it because of low supply or because of some intended design-change) introduced new parts in his building process and that he continually adjusted his part-, circuit- and layout-selection in a way, that he and his customers liked the resulting amps.
So, from a practical point of view I agree with norburybrook: if someone thinks (hears, feels etc.), that the replacement of "old Dales" by "new Dales" results in some undesirable perceptional difference, in my opinion it would be smart to adjust the part-, circuit- and layout-selection in order to achieve a desirable perceptional result with available parts.
And perhaps it might be far more fun for an experienced designer of guitar amps to come up with some kind of new circuit and layout (etc.) resulting in (example given) some authentic reproduction of a 2nd generation ODS kind of tone and feel by using currently available parts, instead of chasing NOS Electras and Dales etc..
pompeiisneaks wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:20 am
That's true, but he also used a looper to replay the exact same phrasing, pick attack, bending etc, so it was 100% cloned performance.
~Phil
I must agree to disagree. First pass amp informs first pass playing.....
If indeed he played the loop and recorded it with original resistors live - he was "playing" those resistors. Not playing the second set - that is my point. If indeed, he was live with his guitar in the same room with the speaker, even more so. First resistors benefit from being "played".
stelligan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:46 am
Another variable not to be overlooked is the player's internal feedback loop. We play these amps as an extension of our instruments. The way we play into them is a direct response to what we are hearing. I can only assume that Erwin was playing live into the original resistors while recording the loop. This would directly impact what was being milked or held, etc.. Acoustic feedback in the original recording may also have favored the original resistors making them "perform" better aided by the input from the player.
Just a thought... Very interesting thread.
I would say I've built or modded around 50 or so amps using the newer type Dales and only 1 using the NOS ones. I actually stopped putting the newer ones in guitar amps about 10 years ago because I would occasionally hear this buzzing thing riding on the top end on certain notes especially in Overdrive. I never thought it could be due to the resistors. Other really good players who I knew would sometimes say those amps sounded a little (I think the word was) harsher sounding. Some amps had it worse than others. Eventually, I figured out it was those resistors I just couldn't use them anymore because I kept hearing that buzzy thing. So to this day if I get an amp like a Ceriatone or another D-clone in that has those resistors I have a hard time playing those amps because I am just waiting to hear that buzzy sound to pop up. So yeah it affects my playing. So things I notice. It's not as bad on certain amps like say an HRM and with certain speaker types, Strats and Teles, silver mica caps and bright on were also more obvious, It's also not as obvious to me on every note and all the time. Occasionally it will appear and I will hear it. Eventually, I just stopped putting them in my customers' amps and went to the KOA Speers and then later another brand which I won't mention out of respect for VVT Amps.
Way to go Erwin and Marcus. Keep at it guy's! That's a lot of work!
BTW. Another thing that might have been useful (if you didn't use one?)was a variac on both tests especially you guys over in Europe
Tony
Last edited by talbany on Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:08 am, edited 4 times in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
stelligan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:21 am
Tony!! My we are some night owls, eh??
Last 102 build I used Koa Speers on plates. I am very happy with that amp..
Erwin may well have recorded the loop prior to to feeding either set of resistors. But I imagine he was auditioning - hence playing the first.
Yep I get Erwin used the looper and I hear ya! My point was, once you hear an anomaly like that in an amp it affects your playing and not aimed directly at Erwin's test specifically.
Btw, The KOA's are a good sounding resistor
I have a sleeping disorder so I wish I could sleep when I want.It sucks.
Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
I've just repeated the test again in mono/dry and the two files are very different .I agree that i can hear a difference in your files at the spot we mentioned, I just wanted to do a control to put my mind at rest it wasn't something else causing the difference.....I'm now more confused
