Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

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Do you hear any difference or non?

Poll ended at Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:01 pm

I hear no difference between the samples.
8
22%
I hear a difference between the samples.
13
35%
I like sample 1 best.
8
22%
I like sample 2 best.
8
22%
 
Total votes: 37

talbany
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by talbany »

Honestly who really knows what it was TAG was hearing :lol: but here are a few possibilities to consider!

Aiken on Swirl.

A: "Swirl"is a dynamically-changing, slightly "phasey" sound as a note or chord decays, which is common to some tube amps. Typically, "swirl" is caused by a midrange "dip" or varying duty-cycle change in a clipped square wave that changes position as the note decays, giving a sort of mild phase shifter effect.

What happens is that first the phase inverter or output stage clips and produces a flat square wave. As the note decays, the signal level decreases, and the midrange frequencies start getting "unclipped" (either by the fact that their frequency band level is lower, or by phase cancellations due to the unequal phase shift with respect to frequency caused by tone controls and other RC phase shifts that occur in a gain stage) and show up as a "dip" in the top of the square wave, which will move back and forth along the top as the fundamental and other harmonics shift the operating point. Even if the clipping ratio isn't extreme enough to show the "dip" on the scope, the duty-cycle of the square wave will usually be dynamically changing as well.

Since the preamp stages are all AC-coupled to each other, the operating point shifts as the signal gets smaller, due to slight "blocking" distortion, where the gain stage clamps the top peak to a point slightly above it's cathode voltage, while allowing the wave to still increase in the negative direction. As the signal decays, it shifts upward and changes the duty-cycle of the clipping. It is this ever-changing shifting of the operating point that causes the "swirl" effect. The trick to good "swirl" is in the correct staging of the gain and frequency breakpoints of each gain stage in the amp, particularly in the phase inverter and output stage.

A similar effect can be caused by too much drive from the phase inverter to the output tubes. As the note decays, a riding "buzz" can be heard coming in and out. This is crossover distortion aggravated by too much signal swing to the output tube grids. Reducing the signal levels at the output of the phase inverter will cure this.

Another cause of a "swirly" sound is a parasitic oscillation that is riding on the output signal, causing intermodulation distortion

Lastly, power supply ripple causing intermodulation artifacts when it mixes with the audio can create a "swirly" sound. This is usually an annoying, non-harmonically-related overtone that rides on the note. If you look at the signal on a scope with the timebase set long enough to see a few cycles of the mains frequency, you can see the 120Hz (or 100Hz) full-wave rectified triangular ripple superimposed on the waveform. If you are looking at a single cycle of the input signal, you can see a "fuzziness" on the top and bottom of the waveform. This effect is most noticeable when the amp output stage is overdriven and the power supply sags. You won't normally see or hear it on a clean waveform..
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
lovetone
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by lovetone »

Hey Erwin, thanks for the comparison very interesting test.

Great playing by the way, nice touch, feel and expression.

I can hear a difference although very slight.

I prefer the first clip which I think is slightly smoother, the second clip is slightly more open with a touch more brightness.

Can you point me towards the schematic you used for your build?

Cheers
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erwin_ve
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by erwin_ve »

lovetone wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:48 am Hey Erwin, thanks for the comparison very interesting test.

Great playing by the way, nice touch, feel and expression.

I can hear a difference although very slight.

I prefer the first clip which I think is slightly smoother, the second clip is slightly more open with a touch more brightness.

Can you point me towards the schematic you used for your build?

Cheers
Thanks lovetone for listening and your kind comments.

Build report:
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29845

Schematic:
https://ampgarage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=46657

Lay-out which contain a few error:
https://ampgarage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=45710

Erwin
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Guy77
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by Guy77 »

Thanks for posting this Erwin! They sound very similar but I slightly prefer the 1st clip. I prefer the sparkly treble sounds.
Your amp sounds amazing.
I am really enjoying the sounds of these 2nd Gen amps. I am starting an Overdrive Special 1x12 combo build in a 50's tweed style cabinet and was going to do a 124 low plate classic with a skyline tone stack but after hearing these 2nd gen amps I have decided to build a 2nd gen design instead! The cleans really sparkle.

Cheers!

Guy
Last edited by Guy77 on Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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didit
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by didit »

Hello --

Have the wave versions of the recordings been posted somewhere? I was expecting something over the weekend, whether simply raw or perhaps a cool mix by Marcus with sampled slices. I've awaiting those before doing some analytic listening.

Thanks .. Ian
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erwin_ve
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by erwin_ve »

didit wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:14 pm Hello --

Have the wave versions of the recordings been posted somewhere? I was expecting something over the weekend, whether simply raw or perhaps a cool mix by Marcus with sampled slices. I've awaiting those before doing some analytic listening.

Thanks .. Ian
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 30#p402788
talbany
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by talbany »

The only measurement I have seen addressing this so far is the plot in Blencowe's Hi-Fi preamp book showing extremely low THD+N for MF types. I can't see any difference with an LCR meter, and my curve traces show there is no voltage dependance on resistance for the new or old MF, or for CF.
Martin
your missing the most important measurement of all. The hearing measurement. Here is a thought put them in your amp and see if you hear a difference. This is why I sent them to you. If you don't hear any difference then you just proved it to yourself!.IMO until you at least take the time to listen to them your opinion carries no weight. If you have no plans to use them in an amp and are convinced they make no difference please send them to someone who will!
Those resistors are a bitch to find.

BTW. Voltage dependence or an LCR meter is not going to tell you the whole story about a resistors sonic performance in a given amplifier. You're scratching the surface.

Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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norburybrook
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by norburybrook »

I am home tomorrow for a day off in the middle of a 6 week tour but will try and do a single file with flip flopping between a and b :D





M
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erwin_ve
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by erwin_ve »

norburybrook wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:36 pm I am home tomorrow for a day off in the middle of a 6 week tour but will try and do a single file with flip flopping between a and b :D





M
And while making the file dont forget to do a good listen on your studio speakers.
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norburybrook
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by norburybrook »

erwin_ve wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:52 pm
norburybrook wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:36 pm I am home tomorrow for a day off in the middle of a 6 week tour but will try and do a single file with flip flopping between a and b :D





M
And while making the file dont forget to do a good listen on your studio speakers.
will they be good enough though?......they only cost $10,000 :D



M
donvan
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by donvan »

Erwin,
Thanks for putting this test together. The looper was a great way to eliminate the differences in playing.
Very helpful!

Don
lovetone
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by lovetone »

Hey Martin

I’ll happy to take the resistors if you have no use for them :D

Cheers Geoff
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erwin_ve
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by erwin_ve »

norburybrook wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:07 pm
erwin_ve wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:52 pm
norburybrook wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:36 pm I am home tomorrow for a day off in the middle of a 6 week tour but will try and do a single file with flip flopping between a and b :D





M
And while making the file dont forget to do a good listen on your studio speakers.
will they be good enough though?......they only cost $10,000 :D



M
You show off, dont forget to turn them on :D
j0k3335
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by j0k3335 »

I am really intrigued and impatient, :D :roll:
so when will we get the result, the truth? :mrgreen:
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erwin_ve
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Re: Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

Post by erwin_ve »

j0k3335 wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:52 am I am really intrigued and impatient, :D :roll:
so when will we get the result, the truth? :mrgreen:
Somewhere this week.
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