Low Impedance Overdrive applied to CAE3+

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roberto
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Low Impedance Overdrive applied to CAE3+

Post by roberto »

The other thread about this book and the link posted by the authors ( https://sites.google.com/site/stringsan ... n-od-stage ) pushed me to open this thread about the options to apply the LIO to high gain amps, being by now mostly being tried to low gain areas.

I'm actually geographically far from where I have my amps and all the needed to tests what I'm writing, but I would like to share some ideas about how to implement this concept in other areas, and get some more inspiration as well.

The easiest implementation would be in Engl-like amps, where the stages are mostly warm biased, and the low cutoff os done through cutting abruptly the lows (coupling caps are in the hundreds-of-pF range), but I personally don't like the sound of high gainers with all warm stages.

The choice has been the CAE 3+ because it's simple, has a partial bypass on the cold stage, has snubber on all stages (that is what the LIO should help to eliminate or at least reduce) and needs voltage dividers before 3rd and 4th stages, that can come handy.
Its schematic is in attachment.

I would avoid to use the LIO between the first and the second stage because it's where you need to shape the fequencies of the OD to make it cut better through the mix (at any level of gain), while most of the time after that it's just a matter of thaming highs to avoid unpleasant IMD and harshness, improving the definition of the overdriven sound, but I have to say that I never like the feed of the stages with snubbers, because they are always a compromise between low gain settings (where you don't need them so much) and really highest gain settings (when they are more needed indeed).

I see three options mainly:
- use split load stages instead of dividers to drive the following stage;
- use a source followers (IRF820?) to drive the following stage;
- use a source follower with increased dynamics by using the raw bias (on an head) or a negative voltage obtained by the main transformer (for the preamp) as ground to give some more useable swing.

Of course there's also the option to combine the first option with one of the other two, that is probably the best choice.

So the simplest option is of course to split the 100k on 3rd stage into two 47k, to get the same attenuation of the 470k 470k voltage divider, with a lower impedance. The partial bypass on the cathode helps to keep the impedance lower at high frequencies.

A more complex option would be to use a split load (to keep the source follower in its linear amplification region) to then an AC coupled source follower (IMHO a DC coupled one would have its working point too much moved towards B+) with CCS to drive the 4th stage.

Then apply the LIO approach to warm stages as shown in the link at the beginning of the thread:

Image

What do you guys think?
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Reeltarded
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Re: Low Impedance Overdrive applied to CAE3+

Post by Reeltarded »

This is something that I have been thinking about recently. I returned to a time when I was most happy with my tones and looked at what the rig was, then I built that amp (JMP brite side of a 4 holer circa 1972) but applied a little different technique to get tonal variations and more apprent feel of gain without having to drive the amp so hard with the two stages...
Signatures have a 255 character limit that I could abuse, but I am not Cecil B. DeMille.
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Guy77
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Re: Low Impedance Overdrive applied to CAE3+

Post by Guy77 »

Hi Roberto, this is actually more a question than an answer. I personally like how voltage dividers can effect the overdrive tones of an amp.

I have played with there values on a couple amps that I built like the CJ11, Liverpool, John Mayer. I really like the way I can change the value of the 2 resisters in the divider to change how the overdriven tone sounds ( these are not Hot Rod Marshall like tones by any means but they are what I like).

I was wondering what type of overdrive tone you were hoping to get from using the Split load and the LIO. Is this more like the tone you would get from a Hot Rod Marshall type amp, very tight sounding, or is this a warmer sounding overdrive tone that is not very tight? I know it can be hard to describe tones in words.


Cheers
Guy
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roberto
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Re: Low Impedance Overdrive applied to CAE3+

Post by roberto »

I'm not trying to obtain a specific sound that I have in mind, rather the opposite: see how it sounds.

I also have a bit of experience in how to get some specific sounds, being more than 15 years that I build amps for me and my friends.

I agree with you that the sound can change alot by just changing the value of a grid stopper on an high gain amp: there's plenty of high gain amps that are just copies of the Soldano Slo100 with minor modifications, and even a different grid stopper will change alot the sound.

I've done some amps with the split load voltage dividers, expecially when I feld that a more direct drive of the following stage was soungind better, but the following stage was limiting the dynamic of the amp, or the presence of the amp was compromised. This should go further in this direction.

I wrote CAE 3+, but it can be applied to Marshall JCM800, Soldano SLO100 (where it is already directly coupled, but with an higher impedance and a grid stopper of 220k), and all other 3 and 4 stages high gain designs.
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Guy77
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Re: Low Impedance Overdrive applied to CAE3+

Post by Guy77 »

Thanks for the details! Looking forward to hearing your results, especially how this effects the dynamic of the amp, or the presence of the amp.
I have listened to the CAE3 preamp on youtube and it is a great sounding preamp, nice overdrive tone.



Ciao

Guy
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roberto
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Re: Low Impedance Overdrive applied to CAE3+

Post by roberto »

Thanks Guy,

I will keep all of you informed on the results.
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