Odd Switch Question?

[The Ballzz]

Hi Folks,

I'm looking for a particular type of switch that I suspect may be available, but I may be using the wrong terminology to search for it. It could be toggle or slide. Here's a description of what I'm trying to accomplish.

Let's picture four toggle switches, mounted in a horizontal row, numbered left to right, 1, 2, 3, & 4, all with the toggles in the "down" position. #1 must be moved to the "up" position before #2 can be moved up, both #1 & #2 must be in "up" position before #3 can be moved up, etc. If all four switches are in the "up" position, moving #2 "down" would automatically push #3 & #4 down also. In addition, moving #1 "down" would cause all the other switches to be moved down. Is what I'm asking clear?

Has anyone ever heard of or seen such a switching system or setup? If so, what is it "officially" called?

Thank You Folks,
Gene

[romberg]

Do you mean that the switches are mechanically linked together? So, what you describe causes the switches themselves to physically move?
Or are you talking about them being electrically connected/linked?

If electrically, then you would need to more specifically describe exactly what
the four switches would be doing. Are they all just daisy chained in series controlling one circuit? Does each switch
control a different circuit? It is not very clear exactly what you are trying to describe.

Mike

[Tony Bones]

I've never seen a toggle or slide switch with that much complexity, but you could have that functionality with a rotary switch that has at least 4 poles and at least 5 positions.

For pole 1 you would connect contacts 2, 3, 4, and 5 together and call them the 'up' output. Contact 1 is the 'down' output.
For pole 2 you connect contacts 3, 4, and 5 as the up output with 1 and 2 as the down output.
etc...

[TUBEDUDE]

Sounds like you need to define a logic table so a circuit can be designed, either a sandy state controlling switches or relays. I don't think finding a mechanical switch bank like that will be easy.

[gingertube]

You can check out surplus suppliers like this one:
http://www.surplussales.com/Switches/SWPushB-2.html
You never know what might turn up, BUT, none on that site do what you want.
I would do it in logic with momentary action push switches.
The logic can be actual logic devices or diode transistor logic responding to momentary action switches on either the footswitch or front panel (or both) like H&K used in this example (see page F):
Each "selection" has an active low Selected line and diodes from that line do the interlock functions.
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/pdf/3216.pdf
For your "requirement" you would want a 5 way selection circuit, the 5th being all off.
Cheers,
Ian

[The Ballzz]

Well Folks,
I was talking about physically/mechanically linked, as in a bank of four or five switches. And yes there would be (one some them) some electrical interaction, shared contacts, etc, but not for controlling each other. The device being designed is passive, with no power provided. Actually for a speaker level attenuator and all functions could be achieved with two DPDT and three SPDT switches. The bugaboo is that they need to be progressive so that certain parts of the circuit shouldn't be activated until others are activated and another deactivated. Yes, a roary switch would be ideal, but by the time we get to the current capacities required, there are many other unneeded features that end up making that switch "astronomically" priced!

Some very active testing has shown that one of the main pitfalls of most attenuation circuits is trying to make them continuously variable. They can actually work quite well and retain tone and character if done carefully and properly in steps rather than variable.

I can't/won't share any more of my partner's design, but suffice it to say that multiple toggle switching works quite well for folks like me or my partner, who are willing and savvy enough to use it properly, but in an idiot's (customer's) hands it could end up a smoking, melted and flamed mess! The only other way to make it idiot proof for marketing, would require electrically and physically sizing all the components in a manner that would make it fairly large and cumbersome!

I have already built a unit that can cut a 50 watt (or any other smaller wattage) amp down by more than 21 db, with no loss of tone and response! It has always been assumed that cutting the "audible" volume of an amp through it's speakers will inevitably lose a bit of character and response, due to loss of air movement from the speaker. We have found this to be a somewhat inaccurate, misconception. It's something else going on that causes that loss of "bounciness & springiness" of character and we've also discovered/devised a way to retain it, while reducing volumes, even to bedroom levels! It would be unethical to share much more than advertising jargon and that it is all based on solid math, testing, modeling, simulations, etc, and is safe for use with tube amps. I think we've hit upon the "holy grail" of sounding loud without having to be loud!

With all that said, it's beginning to look like we'll need to contract/commission having some switches built for our specific purpose.

Thanks For The Switch Thoughts,
Gene

[sluckey]

very impressive

[Reeltarded]

So you can imagine,devise, design, and develop a super-secret magic box (that already exists) but you can't imagine how to switch it..

I'm going to make coffee and heat up my iron. Let me know when you break the laws of physics. It IS about air. Feel doesn't change. A bouncy amp stays bouncy until the lights go out, but the only way to fool Fletcher-Munson is to restore the curve with eq through a smaller driver until the guitar can't hear the amp.. and then you are done. It starts about 95db at 1 meter. A player like Matt Schofield would prove you wrong after flipping 3 of your switches and throwing your idea in the floor.. because it IS about volume. Even a guy playing 3 100w amps and routed to a complex monitor system has to go stand in a sweet spot to make the guitar work. Fletcher-Munson, second law of thermo, and inverse squares vs perpetual motion.

Good luck!

[The Ballzz]

So you can imagine,devise, design, and develop a super-secret magic box (that already exists) but you can't imagine how to switch it..

I'm going to make coffee and heat up my iron. Let me know when you break the laws of physics. It IS about air. Feel doesn't change. A bouncy amp stays bouncy until the lights go out, but the only way to fool Fletcher-Munson is to restore the curve with eq through a smaller driver until the guitar can't hear the amp.. and then you are done. It starts about 95db at 1 meter. A player like Matt Schofield would prove you wrong after flipping 3 of your switches and throwing your idea in the floor.. because it IS about volume. Even a guy playing 3 100w amps and routed to a complex monitor system has to go stand in a sweet spot to make the guitar work. Fletcher-Munson, second law of thermo, and inverse squares vs perpetual motion.

Good luck!

You are of course, absolutely correct! I certainly did not intend to come off as making any claims to have "bypassed" or "broken" the laws of physics! I was perhaps a bit overly exuberant about an attenuator that does actually work much better than most and preserves the feel a bit more by more accurately "mimicking" the perceived sound from the air movement. And yes, we do know exactly how to switch the system, but are just looking for any one of a few different types of devices that we've visualized, but so far don't appear to be available in an affordable format. This is certainly not "super secret" rocket science, but simply a fresh, new take on dotting the "I"s and crossing the "T"s that most others don't bother to do! It generally surrounds the concept of both the speaker and the amp needing to "see" similar impedances and fluctuations as they would when no attenuator is used. This concept, as opposed to the usual "brick wall" of unchanging resistance provided by most resistive attenuators works rather well. It a rather innovative combination of resistors and inductance coils.

While using toggle switches works quite well, it leaves the possibility for an end user to mistakenly, drunkenly, humanly, etc, flip an incorrect series of switches that could damage the unit and/or likely/subsequently their amp! While we are not trying to start a "big business" we'd like to be able to sell/provide them to some folks who may desire them. We however, would be uncomfortable selling any until we have designed a "packaging" arrangement that is as fool proof as possible! And I'm not at all the designer here, just the nuts and bolts guy, endeavoring to provide a good GUI.

If you are at all interested, there is a rather long thread (the most pertinent are the last three or four pages) over at the Marshall forum:

http://www.marshallforum.com/threads/si ... ing.98285/

The site has been a bit wonky as of late, so if it doesn't come up, it will after a short while!

Bottom line is that I've played through many, many attenuators over the years, and this design "neuters" the tone of a wide variety of amps much less than any other I've tried, by a wide margin. Heck, it even allows me to actually use (cranked) one of my favorite 30+ watt amps, in situations where an unattenuated 5 watt amp would be way too loud! Of course, if one wants to trim a 100 watt amp down to those kind of volume levels, this unit would need a far more "robust" construction and generally consider it to be a "SPACE HEATER" more than an audio device!

Thanks For Your Thoughts,
Gene

[Cathode Ray]

If you are at all interested, there is a rather long thread (the most pertinent are the last three or four pages) over at the Marshall forum:

http://www.marshallforum.com/threads/si ... ing.98285/

Am very interested in viewing the pics of your attenuator, but I was bant from the Marshall forum for life, and one cannot view the pics without being logged in.

Any chance you could post them to an image sharing site (Imgur.com) and share them here


Thanks

[The Ballzz]

Cathode Ray,
We can actually upload here now! Screw those image hosting sites!

IMG_0316.jpg

IMG_0315.jpg

IMG_0314.jpg

This is just one prototype and we'd like to add two more stages and not get much larger, if at all. The only safe way to "physically" and subsequently "electrically" shrink the component sizes of smaller stages is through progressive switching. It works out to be a balancing act between current capacity and real estate!

Thanks For Looking!
Gene

[Reeltarded]

Industrial machine surplus. Find the rotary that works and buy as many as you think you'll ever need in one shot. It's as fool-proof as anything will or could be. Many switches allow you to limit positions but have many decks in the stack for wiring options.

Aha you posted as I was I guess.

You should use many much smaller resistors. The only difference between this and everything else is the inductors wired for loudness and it's got an unsafe switching setup. Look at what everyone else did and do that.

[The Ballzz]

Industrial machine surplus. Find the rotary that works and buy as many as you think you'll ever need in one shot. It's as fool-proof as anything will or could be. Many switches allow you to limit positions but have many decks in the stack for wiring options.

Aha you posted as I was I guess.

You should use many much smaller resistors. The only difference between this and everything else is the inductors wired for loudness and it's got an unsafe switching setup. Look at what everyone else did and do that.

Ahh Yes Sir,
Industrial machine surplus is exactly where I would expect to find such items, as there certainly aren't any modern manufacturers producing such stuff! Problem is that places like that are increasingly harder to find and selection shrinks as their inventory dries up! I'll give my "GOOGLE-FU" a try!
Thanks,
Gene

[Reeltarded]

These came along with all these AB pots. There were stacks of 6 with 12 positions, 6 with 9, 9 with 4.. lots of versions up to maybe ten inches deep. You have to be crafty about what you are looking for on ebay. Ebay IS the best place to find stuff not listed in the main title just keep searching for industrial switching, switches, machine switching.. make a note of other terms in the ads that most often have similar things you are looking for.

This ad was something like "numerous old potentiometers".

[Reeltarded]

and just for fun a 5k presence pot for people too lazy to walk over to the amp..

It's lying.

The highend really sticks out on this one.

Here all week. Try the duck.