Hook-up Wires

[PaulD]

I have developed a test meter that measures the audible difference between hookup wires



Sadly the audiofool snake oil marketing hype that persists in the hi-fi world seems to be getting more and more common in the guitar amp world now.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I have developed a test meter that measures the audible difference between hookup wires

Sadly the audiofool snake oil marketing hype that persists in the hi-fi world seems to be getting more and more common in the guitar amp world now.

Great first post! I sure can use one of those meters.

As for silly wire, I noticed a pretty darn good amp company, Carr, uses super fat fancy-dan wire so their output electrons won't get lost on a one-foot trip to the speaker. Must impress some customers!

[shoggoth]

At audio frequencies stranded vs solid vs dielectric strength of insulation isn't going to matter. Be thick enough for the current and call it good.

I prefer stranded because it's more flexible, and PVC insulation because Teflon gives me a headache when it heats up during soldering.

("isn't going to matter" is a broad statement, e.g. shielded cable has capacitance, but go read the theory and do the math instead of believing guys who believed others guys who believed other guys who believed an amp builder who was pulling his ignorant competitors' collective legs)

[R.G.]

First off, let me apologize to the group for bringing that bit of unpleasantness into the cordial and respectful discussions that prevail here. I did not feel good doing it, but I think I would have felt worse not saying anything and letting the unsubstantiated and generally un-substantiat-able claims of the hifi tweako domain creep in.

Sorry.

And no, those discussions typically don't go well. A real True Believer is generally immune to a real discussion.

I did mean what I said about verifiable facts changing my outlook on an issue. A notable one is my position on carbon comp resistors. Early on, I held that the idea that using all carbon comp resistors in an amp made it sound better. I just kept getting beaten on with that so much that I went out and researched it. Turns out, carbon comp resistors really do sound different, but only in a highly, highly special situation, and only a little. That condition turns out to be when there is a large enough signal voltage across the resistor to have the resistor's voltage coefficient of resistance cause a different voltage to appear for a given current - it's actually a minor violation of Ohm's Law. So in a tube amp with signal voltages across plate resistors running 75V peak or more, you do get measurable distortion from carbon comps that you don't get from other resistor types.

I changed my viewpoint and documented this (for me) epiphany at my web site. Knowing what is really happening explained both the experience that in nearly all situations, sound change from carbon comps is too low in the (excess...) noise to measure, and that in some tube amps, it's audible, if not very.

I really meant what I said - show me the measurements taken in ways that are independently verifiable and I will change my position on things.

Reality is important. If you ignore it, you're on your way to being an emperor with new clothes.

[shoggoth]

BTW if anyone cares to really learn the math I recommend the book High Speed Digital Design by Howard Johnson.

https://www.amazon.com/High-Speed-Digit ... tal+design

It's $100, and despite being subtitled "A Handbook of Black Magic", is nothing but straight-up science. A lot of the pseudo-science floating around revolves around the physical phenomena described therein, proposed by people who can't and wouldn't care to do the math that shows that what they're saying is just flat out wrong.

Nothing in there has any practical impact on guitar amp building, beyond debunking silly ideas.

I'm not sure how people are doing wiring "listening" comparisons. If it's two "identical" amps with different wiring, the caps in there all have +/-20% tolerances, which dwarfs every other phenomenon that could be going on, neverminding the potentially different tubes. If it's by ripping out and substituting in new wire, do some objective science and play pre-recorded inputs or fixed signals through the amp, recording the output, and compare, preferably w/ some kind of spectral analysis.

[pompeiisneaks]

I too felt uncomfortable with some of the tone of that, but as a career enginerd, I've fought against the snake oil mentality. I hope this forum continues to, but in as polite and peaceable manner as possible .

I remember hearing about a blind test done with audiophiles and a 1000$ connect cable, VS hangar wire. They audiofools couldn't discern the difference

I do still use my hearing to determine what I like and then do as much research and scientific analysis to try and understand WHY that's the case.

~Phil

[Charlie Wilson]

Wow, for a minute there I thought I could hear the difference between things like PVC and Teflon wire and different resistors. Thanks to the wonders of science I realize I am delusional and not in touch reality. Thanks R.G. for clearing that up. I'll get some eardrops or something.
CW

[shoggoth]

Wow, for a minute there I thought I could hear the difference between things like PVC and Teflon wire and different resistors. Thanks to the wonders of science I realize I am delusional and not in touch reality.

Or, instead of sarcasm, you could slap science back in everyone's face by running some controlled experiments showing the effect you're claiming to experience. Or if you can't reproduce it, maybe it will change your thinking about the phenomenon.

[pompeiisneaks]

And he's right in saying that there is a lot of evidence sociologically that proves that people are really good at convincing themselves of things that can't actually be true, just due to their pre conceived bias. It doesn't mean you're not right, but unless you can measure it, it's nothing more than opinion instead of fact. No shame in that game, just come with data my friends

~Phil

[xtian]

Put another way, unless it has numbers, you can't bet on it in Vegas.

[Charlie Wilson]

And he's right in saying that there is a lot of evidence sociologically that proves that people are really good at convincing themselves of things that can't actually be true, just due to their pre conceived bias. It doesn't mean you're not right, but unless you can measure it, it's nothing more than opinion instead of fact. No shame in that game, just come with data my friends

~Phil

Maybe so Phil but be careful with this because it can go either way. The "science" guys are so convinced that their graphs and simulations tell the whole story that they won't even bother to listen for themselves. So convinced that it can't be true that they would deny it even if they heard it. I guess everyone has their own way of doing things but my hearing is the most important tool I use when I build or repair amplifiers. I don't really have time nor feel the need to build and rebuild an amplifier to prove something I have already experienced to someone else. What pissed me off was that the only guy on this thread that even mentioned listening to the wire was verbally bullied off the thread.
CW

[Leo_Gnardo]

First off, let me apologize to the group for bringing that bit of unpleasantness into the cordial and respectful discussions that prevail here. I did not feel good doing it, but I think I would have felt worse not saying anything and letting the unsubstantiated and generally un-substantiat-able claims of the hifi tweako domain creep in.

Sorry.

And no, those discussions typically don't go well. A real True Believer is generally immune to a real discussion.

<snip>

I really meant what I said - show me the measurements taken in ways that are independently verifiable and I will change my position on things.

Reality is important. If you ignore it, you're on your way to being an emperor with new clothes.

This is why our friends at Audio Asylum have special rules at their Cable forum. If anyone is cheeky enough to mention "Double Blind Test" they're instantly automatically ejected. Kind of like that scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail: wrong answer? Woof, over the cliff you go. Why do they do it this way? Seems kind of odd for a group of folks that otherwise respect both science and perception. Here's why: "Cables" is reserved partially as an asylum (how appropriate) for the wackos who make kooky claims and do NOT respect the ability of DBT to separate fiction from truth. Sometimes this leads to entertaining discussions, but it does get tedious when DBT, or even mentioning it, is disallowed.

So, those true believers who wish to make the claim that this insulator, or that color, or lifting wires off the floor with cute little props, or placing magic stones near connectors, or using 8 gauge line cables, parking magic bricks atop transformers, or anything like that makes an obvious improvement in audio quality - sure no problem go ahead BUT support your claims with valid, properly done DBT tests. We have no prohibition on those here. I'm sure we would all like to read about the results. And if you want to visit the nut house, click on this link to AA's Cable Asylum: https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=cables Mind you, it's not by far 100% wacko, there's lots of useful, informative threads going on there too.

Now tell me son, what's your favorite colour?

[Charlie Wilson]

OK you win. I'll stay on the Dumble side of the fence were guys actually care about what their amps SOUND like and leave the virtual audio world to you geniuses.
CW

[R.G.]

Charlie, I have no doubt whatsoever that you do hear differences. At times, I do too. But I am very suspicious of my insights - I have this bug about knowing why.

What I desperately want to know is WHERE the differences really come from. I fully believe that there are things we have not learned yet. But if we can't find out WHAT makes the difference, and HOW it does it, we're stuck back in the tall grass.

It's funny how polarizing online discourse can be. I seem to remember your opinions on wire from previous posts. I never had any qualms about them.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I'll stay on the Dumble side of the fence were guys actually care about what their amps SOUND like and leave the virtual audio world to you geniuses.

Funny thing, Dumble himself stated early 80's he used nothing special to make his amps. "Parts from Radio Shack work fine." He scoffed at boo-tiki parts whilst building his very highly priced, very highly prized boo-tiki amps. I had a nice chat with him in 1978. He was all about straight up science & engineering. No magic unicorn dust. Of course he made decisions based on "what it sounds like" and used his engineering knowledge to understand why. Any builder / mod / repair person should. Has HAD changed his modus operandi in the last 40 years? Yes I suppose, his prices have gone clear out the roof, but that's business not building. I can understand people being jealous of that, and therein lies another rare and enviable talent: you have to convince the buyer he can't live another minute without paying a couple dozen grand for your amp. That's where the mojo is!