Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

martin manning wrote:The amp in the YT is def on the clean side; sounds good too. What are the supply and plate voltages on the 6SL7 now?
250V supply / 58V plate / -.6 bias and right now it's the 220K shared and 5.6M grid leak. And I sure don't have any 440K of any sort. Hope the e-shop in town does - they had the 5.6Ms :D not bad for Bumfucco. Must be an old pile of parts, 99% of their business now is satellite TV and security - entertained and safe, welcome to the modern world.

Martin while you got your straight edge and pencil out can I get you to double check the 6J5? I'm wondering if Fender got the bias right. If anyone recalls, I discovered the 5C8 layout is half right, the 160V plate they give is incorrect for the 6J5 it's for the paralled 6SC7 in V3 version that followed this model. Now I'm wondering if they have the bias right. Fender has a fully bypassed 1500 resistor in the schematic w/ 2.7V bias, and had that too for the paralleled 6SC7 - as we had all figured out in the past. I 86'd the 6SC7 a while back, sounds better with the 6J5 there. Here's the 6J5 voltages at the moment:

100K / 250V supply / 80V plate / 2.9V bias using green LED
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trobbins
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by trobbins »

390k or 470k should be common. Nearly all circuit part values can use 'the next available' without much concern.
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martin manning
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by martin manning »

rp wrote:Martin while you got your straight edge and pencil out can I get you to double check the 6J5? I'm wondering if Fender got the bias right. If anyone recalls, I discovered the 5C8 layout is half right, the 160V plate they give is incorrect for the 6J5 it's for the paralled 6SC7 in V3 version that followed this model. Now I'm wondering if they have the bias right. Fender has a fully bypassed 1500 resistor in the schematic w/ 2.7V bias, and had that too for the paralleled 6SC7 - as we had all figured out in the past. I 86'd the 6SC7 a while back, sounds better with the 6J5 there. Here's the 6J5 voltages at the moment:

100K / 250V supply / 80V plate / 2.9V bias using green LED
We checked that before... I still have the data sheet curves with the bias point spotted, and it is correct.
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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

I forgot about the 6J5, it's coming back to me. I need to find my old posts on this amp and pdf them and stick in a file, my two letter handle makes searching difficult.

For now I'll try 470K as I found those, and split the anodes tonight. I got an itchy solder finger. I was reading around, apparently grid leak bias really pulls the voltage down, and as you said it runs hot, so I guess Fender knew what they were doing. I'm going to try and push the overall voltage up a bit by changing the power resistor btwn C1 and C2 from 10K to 5K, but it may not have much effect down the line at V1.

Now where am I gonna get some proper 1W 470K AB's in Italy :-(
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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

trobbins wrote:It may be worth trying a large'ish cap between grid circuit and input socket switched ground (instead of a link) as a way of AC grounding the grid with no input plug - that shouldn't change the DC grid bias, or affect performance. Even the larger 0.1uF as used by Fender is equivalent to 26k ohm at 60Hz.
Bingo, Awesome. Happy Joy. Worked a treat. Only large’ish value/ small size caps I had were 4.7mf/50V e-caps. I think that’s an appropriate value, I plugged it into the calculator got 500 ohm at 60Hz (but let me know if somehow it’s a bad choice). The bias charge stays put now and the plate voltages of the triodes stay high and the same no matter what switching is going on. Really nice when you find a fix that doesn’t seem to screw something else up.
trobbins wrote:There seems to be in and out heater cables - although of no significant issue, its good to wire the input stage heater by itself (not part of a daisy chain).
Yes, but my daisy chain was good, from power valves down to last input tube. I wanted to try DC heaters and even a separate tranny for V1-V3 but VERY glad I didn’t bother or waste money. It’s as quiet as any other well made, well running vintage circuit after a few proper tweaks. (BTW I have the heaters elevated at 60V but I’m betting I could disconnect that now and it would be just as quiet.) The really big deal here was converting to 6SL7s from 6SC7s. Grounding the V1 grids was the clincher.
trobbins wrote:It looks like the input valve socket is rubber 'sprung' - but the leads from the socket are 'hard' with no flex (eg. the pin 1 grid stopper).
You got me there - Duh slap! Yes, not at all useful if wiring PTP and teflon wire sure doesn’t help. Tits on a bull. But anyone looking from the outside doesn’t know that :-)
martin manning wrote:I think it will be cleaner and louder after separating the triodes, and you may not like it, so yes experiment using expendable parts. I haven't forgotten about doing the grid leak bias test for 6SL7... I'll probably have some time tomorrow.
You called it Martin. Perked up, sounds snappier. Sounds great actually. I’m thinking you can hear a tube chart, maybe even sing a tube chart! Not sure what the best plate resistor value is but 470K seems to work well. I’m now preferring the grid leak side to the cathode biased side. Has a great Richard Thompson bouncy Straty twang to it. Sounds real solid too, grid leak without any of the bugaboos (except for the eventual tube ageing issue).

trobbins and the EFK M-E forum guy, solved any grid leak issues people might have and if they want to try it seems this is the best way to do it, at least on a dual triode. The only thing in the signal path that wasn’t on the original circuit is just the 2.2K stopper. I set up one channel as .02mf to prevent any overloading and the other remained as the schematic w/ .1mf. Every tweak I tried before I never felt the grid leak channel was ‘solid’ - like plug in and let rip solid. I think it was that open triode mucking up the sound, even unstrapped. A lot of noise came in as you turned up though it wasn’t apparent while playing. I had seen a THD amp schematic w/ grid leak set up normal Fender style 33k/1m before the input cap and tried that, and 68k/68k low side too, and it just seemed to take a bit of the life out it, some of the immediacy that grid leak has. The 68k/68k was dark and lifeless. Good riddance to all that, this set up works.

I think this amp is finally buttoned up and not all that far from stock :-) Anyone down the road who looks inside it will think I actually know what I’m doing - Yikes! Time to start my own half-assed amp business!

So: anyone looking up grid leak guitar amp, something above an SE Gibson, Supro or Champ and with a dual triode to deal with, look here first. Too bad TAG might be the first product of the digital era to prove that data ain’t forever :-(
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martin manning
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by martin manning »

Good to hear you are making progress here, rp.

I ran a grid leak bias experiment on a 6SL7GT, and got results very similar to the previous experiment using a 12AX7. First I grounded both grids to the cathode terminal to get true Vg=0 curves, and then grounded both grids through 1M, 2M2, 5M6, and 10M resistors. Since both grids were grounded through a single resistor, this is like 2M to 20M grid resistance. Both sections exhibited curves approximately equivalent to -0.5V Vg, same as the 12AX7, and the value of the grid leak resistor does not seem to be too critical as all of the traces are very close together.
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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

Ive been putting it through it's paces, diff speakers and cabs. This amp sounds fine - way fine. It's back to 6l6g coke bottles and 5U4 as God intended. Nice Blues amp. You guys know your shizzle. Tim, you just made grid leak bias available to the masses, it's been a long time coming :lol:

I had a snubber on the PI, had a how-to post about it with a paraphase, that's gone - amps is sweeter now. Both sides rock solid. I really think the open grids on a twin triode grid leak set up are seriously problematic. I bet the original Fender suffered too once you turned up loud, but in 1953 you weren't supposed to turn up. Before if I just dimed the channel I'd first get loud hum at ~ 7, then squeal, especially if on top the cab. Even with the switched pre blocking caps set up if I inserted an open dummy plug into the unused jack this would happen - grid leak, open grid, strapped anode - recipe for a mess. Solved.

Oh yeah, Edcor makes a fine OT. Maybe not kosher, but tasty nonetheless.

Big Thanks and Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays to all TAG and may the EM80 atop your Christmas tree shine bright.
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Colossal
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by Colossal »

RP, if it's not too much of a headache, would you mind posting a schematic of what your amp looks like now, after all changes?
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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

No problemo, besides a soldering jones, I have a cut and paste jones.

Did the best I could trying to layout the Cliff jack switching, hopefully the idea gets across at least. I think I got the rest right, let me know if I screwed something up. The values and voltages should be right.

No real reason to bother with the strapped anode cathode biased channel with the clever bias switching, except it's clever. If I was to do it over, I'd unstrap the anodes. Silly business that, but it might be part of the vibe. When you clone you have to decide if you clone warts and all.
Last edited by rp on Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

If anyone's still out there and not away for the holidays, quick question: The grid leak bias is -.7. Should the e-caps I have on the switch be reversed, ie + to ground?

And a happy 2017.
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martin manning
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by martin manning »

Probably not a big deal with such a low voltage, but I think yes. Vg will always be less or equal 0, and when the input is in use the AC is +/- with respect to that.
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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

That's what I figured, they aren't likely to blow up w/ .7v but best flip them I guess. Thanks as always, Martin.
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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

minor schematic revision
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rp
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by rp »

Do I need mixers here? Seems just fine w/o, seems great actually, but I looked at various schematics and whenever two signals come together there are always mixer resistors. It's a very big PITA at this point to get them in there, what am I missing/loosing if I leave them out? If I really should put them in, I assume like a 5D8 two 100ks will do?
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martin manning
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Re: Further Grid Leak Bias Questions

Post by martin manning »

Nothing to worry about there. The ra//Ra of the 6SL7 on the opposite side (~40k) prevents excessive signal loss. Note the 120k mix resistors at the 6J5 grid are necessary. Otherwise the signal would be lost as the opposite channel's volume control is turned down.
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