Understanding Power Amp Distortion

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RJ Guitars
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Re: Beautiful Timing

Post by RJ Guitars »

SilverFox wrote:I'm sitting here listening to Novella, (according to a post on the ampgarage the guitarist used a Trainwreck), talk about a "Major Distraction" and yet, whatever amp is being used is totally making the point...
silverfox.
Take a look at this post. It will give you precise information on what amp was being used in the Novella recordings. It was primarily a Trainwreck Rocket, with a few Liverpool tracks as well. In the event you didn't know the Rocket is the top boost channel of an AC-30 so not such a high gain amp. The Liverpool on the other hand will blister paint off the walls with no additional boost needed. https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=6840

RJ wrote: ...

AGF - here is the breakdown of info that Derek Ferwerda provided to me on the Liquid Earth CD recordings. rj


From Derek:

The Novella “A liquid Earth” recordings is evidence that no matter how much crap, effects and EQ you do to a Trainwreck, it will still sound great. No additional effects were used from me on the amp or the guitar. I only used Dean Skalar’s strings, which were a hand wrapped nickel silver string, much like the vintage strings of the 50’s. The amps used were. A Rocket (Amanda) an Express (Kelly) and a Liverpool (Nicolle) and on the last track “Stranger; Jonathan played an additional amp. It was a 1968 Hiwatt that Ken had modded out in 1990

Track 1.) Story; Rocket- ESP 1982 Telecaster- Skylar 11 gauge strings nickel-silver wraped.

Track 2.) Bad Place; Rocket on Rhythm, Express on leads Gibson 1960 re-issue Les Paul with hand wired pickups from Lindy Fralin.

Tarck 3.) ‘Don’t you run; Rocket Rhythm and an express for leads. Les Paul 1960

Track 4.) Fire in the house. Same as above.

Track 6.) ‘Let’s talk about Love; Rocket- Les Paul

Track 8.) “color of Love Liverpool 1960 Les Paul and a re-issue Les Paul from 1988. Standard pickups

Track 9.) “Missionary” Liverpool 1960 Les Paul (re-issue)

Track 10.) Jonathan Played all of these tracks. Liverpool and a Hiwatt off of his 1988 re-issue Les Paul.

As all recordings were then. There was tons of EQ, compression, reverb and B.S. It is Liquid Earth, despite the ever-present use of Trainwreck”s really don’t showcase the amp. But here is the info. I hope that this helps.

Plinky AKA Ray Giglio was the producer for the Novella records. Both One Big Sky and A liquid Earth. He did a great job especially for the day.

Derek
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pdf64
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by pdf64 »

Bear in mind that serviceable power tubes (unless operated with a preceding stage capable of driving current into the power tube control grid, class XX'2' style) tend not to saturate, ie if we can pull the grid positive, more plate current will likely flow.
Seen from that perspective, what's referred to as power tube distortion is really just their g1-k clipping the signal from their preceding stage, ie they're just acting like the clipping diodes in, eg an MXR Distortion +.
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by pdf64 »

Triodes may be seen to have a significant degree of inherent negative feedback http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/i ... hfbtriodes

Langford-Smith notes that output pentodes (I suspect he includes power beam tetrodes in this) have a cushioning effect when approaching the overload point, and their rise in distortion is gradual, see p1 of http://dalmura.com.au/projects/Audio%20 ... 201956.pdf

Negative feedback tends to make the transition from clean to clipped more abrupt, perhaps overriding the cushioning effect noted above.
http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/what ... e-feedback
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by pdf64 »

Regarding the 'tubes vs transistors' paper, I just happened across teemuk's appraisal of it:-
Russell O. Hamm’s study was based on measurements of only four different microphone preamplifiers (“…four different commercially available preamplifiers, using two or more stages of amplification. All the circuits use feedback, a couple are push-pull.”). Testing only four devices can hardly give universal results and even more: The test setup was highly biased since all of the measured tube circuits were single-ended while all of the measured transistor circuits were push-pull. Figures 10
and 11 (in the study), that depict square wave clipping of a transistor (and high-order harmonics that it creates), clearly reveal “ringing” oscillation at the onset of clipping. This means that Hamm compared an unstable circuit to a set of stabile ones.
The paper does not depict the tested circuits either, which leaves reader to speculate if there was something else behind the performance of the circuits than just the type of active devices they used. In essence, Hamm’s study presented rough generalizations that hold true only in some specific cases.


See p24 of the excellent http://www.thatraymond.com/downloads/so ... a_v1.0.pdf
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teemuk
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by teemuk »

Yes, everyone always refers to Russell O. Hamm paper but no one refers to any of these:

Mintz, R.S.: Comments on “Tubes Versus Transistors – Is there an Audible Difference?”, JAES (forum) Volume 21 p. 651; October 1973.

Trumbull, R.H.; More about 'Tubes versus Transistors', JAES (forum), Volume 22, p. 24, Jan/Feb 1974

Monteith, D.O.; Flowers, R.R.: Transistors Can Sound Better Than Tubes, JAES Volume 25 Issue 3 pp. 116-119; March 1977.

Which very convincingly dispell some conclusions of Hamm's paper. Particularly those about harmonic distortion characteristics inherent to devices. If Hamm's study would have had more samples of amplifiers, presenting various different designs one may commonly encounter, his results would have been much different and less straightforward.

Monteith and Flowers basically hit the nail on the head in their final conclusions:
In conclusion, the high voltage transistor preamplifier presented here supports the viewpoint of Mintz: 'In the field analysis, the characteristics of a typical system using transistors depends on the design, as is the case in tube circuits. A particular 'sound' may be incurred or avoided at the designer's pleasure no matter what active devices he uses.'
And in the light that the article presents a single-ended transistor mic pre amp, tuned for asymmetric clipping, which results to higher amount of even order harmonic distortion (unlike push-pull SS mic preamps tested by Hamm) the comment makes a lot of sense. Why did Hamm ignore that there are many different circuit architectures in both tube and SS categories? That was a paramount mistake.

Additionally, the thought process within may apply to HiFi design but when it comes to using distortion as -intentional- musical effect all "rules" fly out the window. Practice dispells his theory about what harmonics distorting tubes and solid-state amps produce, and not only that, practice also disagrees with Hamm's view about what harmonics are "musical". The theory about intervals of harmonic frequencies does seem sound at first, but unfortunately it just doesn't withstand any scrutiny with practical designs and applications that more or less use amps as sound effect processors. There are very few that actually work in a way outlined in Hamm's study.

Do note that these same "HiFi principles" also put ideal status to things like flat frequency response and high damping factor, while none of them is ideal for guitar amps either.

Upper odd harmonics may sound nasty when you listen them in a sine wave, but when you want to sound like Jimi Hendrix you simply can't do it without plenty of distortion, even, odd, high and low order. All those things can be good or bad, but it entirely depends on context and individual preferences. That's just how it goes, and Hamm's paper never even addresses this.
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jazbo8
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by jazbo8 »

Here is a more relavent paper from CBS/Fender: Tubes Versus Transistors in Electric Guitar Amplifiers

Conclusion
"Listening tests indicate two causes for differences in perceived sound of tube and transistor guitar amplifiers. These are ripple intermodulation distortion and frequency response differences caused by the reactive speaker load interaction with the output impedance of the amplifier. Although ripple intermodulation distortion is easily detected by trained listeners, only one of seventeen test subjects was able to detect it without training. The change in frequency response caused by the high output impedance of the tube amp is by far the predorninant cause for differences.

The differences in speaker damping were not detected by the listeners. Also not detected were the differences in the harmonic content of an overloaded signal in the power amplifiers."


Underline added by me.
teemuk
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by teemuk »

High output Z interacting with load Z presented by the loudspeaker, which is nothing but "linear", makes amplifier's gain vary with different frequencies. Typical loudspeakers have a resonant frequency, at which they act as moderately high impedance loads, and additionally the inductance of the voice coil also increases Z towards higher frequencies. When a high output Z amplifier drives such load its gain at such frequencies will be higher (think of the voltage divider created by output Z and load Z) and this naturally has direct influence on frequency response.

I don't understand the notion that "damping" effects are undetected, because this is nothing but an effect of damping. Amplifiers with high damping factors have lower output Zs and are much less prone to display this characteristic.

It could be that those Fender guys referred to other effects related to damping factor, like its influence on impulse response and ability (or disability) to "damp" speaker cone movements caused by mechanical inertia.

Tubes generally are high impedance devices so matching them to low impedances is hard to do "ideally". Negative voltage feedback can be used to decrease output Z, but with traditional tube power amps the phase shifts created by output transformer limit how much feedback can be applied while the circuit still remains "stabile".

Bogen's engineers discovered in 1950's that there's an alternative method of applying feedback: Current. Load current can be converted to voltage (simply pass it through a resistor and "sample" signal from resistor's terminals), and when such signal is used as positive feedback it effectively lowers output Z. This is good for "HiFi" because the result is flatter frequency response and more accurate reproduction of the signal without excessive coloration.

The principle can also be reversed: Negative current feedback increases output impedance. Such setups have been traditionally added to solid-state musical instrument amps since 1960's. Active speaker cabinets of Fender (solid-state) "Super Showman" amp , for example, featured a switch to connect or disconnect this alternative feedback path. They are not the earliest reference to the idea overall, but they are the earliest amps I've encountered that marketed the resultant effect as "tube emulation". Bear in mind, it was as early as in late 1960's. Today mixing current and voltage feedback is pretty much a standard setup for all solid-state guitar amps.
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jazbo8
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by jazbo8 »

Yes, it's a bit confusing, if no speaker damping could be detected then it contradicts ...the change in frequency response caused by the high output impedance of the tube amp is by far the predorninant cause for differences. :roll:

In most guitar amps, there is a lot less NFB applied than the hi-fi amps, so the low damping factor should really make more of a difference in the LF response, therefore easily detectable.
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I've been reading this stuff

Post by SilverFox »

I've actually been reading the various recommendations. Well, except for the 400 page book. But I'll get to and appreciate that also. I did peruse it and there seems to be a wealth of information there.

Anyway, Jazbo8- I like how they make a tube amp sound like a transistor amp to conduct the test. That says in itself volumes. The fact the fluctuating output impedance is what causes a noticeable difference in tone characteristics is very informative. And the test produce meaningful information since after getting rid of the unique aspects of the tube amp, both sounded the same to the guitarist.

btw my backup amp is a MosFet power amp with output transformers in it. Rumoured, by
an ex-employee of Trace Ellioit to be tube spec. output transformers. This power amp was packaged with a tube preamp.


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RJ Guitars
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Re: I've been reading this stuff

Post by RJ Guitars »

SilverFox wrote:...btw my backup amp is a MosFet power amp with output transformers in it. Rumoured, by
an ex-employee of Trace Ellioit to be tube spec. output transformers. This power amp was packaged with a tube preamp.


silverfox.
I had a Sound City amp with a tube preamp and Transistor output that was the rage when they came out but really didn't sound all that great once I compared it to a Fender that I had at the time. It was even less impressive compared to my buddy's Marshall.

IIRC tubes use high voltage and low currents on the secondary while all the transistors I'm familiar with have low voltages and high currents. Thus tube specs on a transistor output must mean something different than simply using a tube OT in a Transistor amp. Would be curious what they actually mean?
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jazbo8
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by jazbo8 »

I think whoever that said it had a "tube spec" OPT was doing some marketing-speak... Clearly, the impedance ratios would be quite different, anyway, they will do whatever it takes to sell a few more amps - if the players all want the tube sound, fine, slap an OPT in it, couldn't hurt... :P
SilverFox
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Trace Elliot Trannies

Post by SilverFox »

Jaz, It couldn't hurt? Why would the engineers add an additional $150.00 or more to the production costs each unit, if it didn't add to the quality of the product? Barring of course an idiot professor... I can't buy the marketing aspect either since the documentation doesn't mention "Tube Output Transformers Included".

The person making the statement was the former RD manager for Trace, Andy Ewen. When he made the statement Andy was no longer working for Trace, so I don't think he had anything to gain by making the statement: "Output stages are unusual, in that they are Hitachi K135 MOSFETS driving valve-style output transformers. This gives a rich second-harmonic distortion."

I also found today in searching for information on the transformers I have, I found several other models of Trace Amps had OT made for EL34's, 3500 ohm windings.

Anyway, they look like tube output transformers and regarding the harmonics associated with the OT's, it sounds reasonable they would sweeten the sound.

Okay; After reading the CBS study, comparison between tubes and transistors it made sense that the determining factor in distinguishing SS from tubes was related to the varying impedance of the output section in a tube amplifier, when connected to an inductive load. The varying impedance acted as a filter on the audio spectrum. I believe that is what was stated.

Not trying to be argumentative but this could be very material to the "tube sound" of power amp distortion associated with tube amps.

So, RJ, did the Sound City have an output transformer?

silverfox.
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Re: Trace Elliot Trannies

Post by jazbo8 »

SilverFox wrote:Jaz, It couldn't hurt? Why would the engineers add an additional $150.00 or more to the production costs each unit, if it didn't add to the quality of the product?
I doubt it's anywhere near $150, more like a few dollars, bear in mind that the SS amps have very low output impedance to begin with, so do not need the high turns ratio for matching the speakers. The fact TE used 3.5k for the OPT, was a design decision it made, but there are many other ways to achieve the same result... anyway, to emulate the tube output stage, the OPT's in the SS amps are typically used to add some color/distortion to the sound, they do not serve as the key component as in the case of tube output stages.
"Output stages are unusual, in that they are Hitachi K135 MOSFETS driving valve-style output transformers. This gives a rich second-harmonic distortion."
The second part of the statement is the key, i.e., it adds distortion.
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In consideration of...

Post by SilverFox »

Working... I'll check it out at some point as when I get an amp build I'm happy with I'm going to take one of those OT out of the MosFet amp and determine the turns ratio and other data. The big question I have will be how to tell if the insulation is sufficient for HV.

silverfox.
teemuk
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Re: Understanding Power Amp Distortion

Post by teemuk »

About that Trace Elliot power amp architecture...

[img:1047:532]http://oi64.tinypic.com/mkgdqv.jpg[/img]
http://oi64.tinypic.com/mkgdqv.jpg
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