Is the real Trainwreck amp sound much better than clones?

[Mark]

Alan post the thread to music electronics thread I'm curious to see what the rational is?

I only saw your Dumble thread and not a Trainwreck Thread. I think the thing to remember it's a guitar amp, not brain surgery or rocket science.

In saying that they can be very tricky, good thing I'm not a brain surgeon.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Building amps to me is a lot like cooking. You can give 10 people the same recipe and each resulting dish will have some of the individual personality of the guy or gal that went through the process to make it. Ken was a damned good cook for sure, he knew what he wanted to hear or "taste" and he had done the work to know how to get it. I think any builder that has put in the time to develop their chops and has a little bit of a gift for it can build a wonderful wreck inspired amp or any other amp for that matter… but it will still sound like them.

[vibratoking]

Alan - welcome to the forum. Do you, and us, a favor and do your homework. The new guys are expected to use the search function and educate themselves by reading the previous threads... Glad to have you here.

You are too kind since you do not know him yet... be prepared to be bombarded with noob questions that you would think a 40-year EE ought to know, sigh...

I don't doubt your opinion. And I did notice the oddity regarding that type of question coming from an EE. Magical thinking from someone who should know better is a red flag. The other red flag is the lack of research that he performed on a subject that he is seemingly interested in. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt. If it turns into something else, then the gloves will come off. You know it.

[HeeBGB]

I believe he is referring to this thread

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t35188/

The OP never really says where he gets the impression that clones don't measure up. He just keeps stating that they don't. That is contrary to my experiences. I have directly A/B'd clones with real KF tuned Express amps and in a couple of cases I found the clones equal to or better than the original. Keep in mind that the differences were not monumental. But in one particular case there were two clones built by the same guy. One was equal to the real wreck and the other clone edged out the real one by a small margin.

IME if you follow the layout and choose the right parts you will be right there with the real deal. Of course finding the right parts is the trick these days.

Of course we have all heard the really bad sounding clones too! I've built a few myself.

[vibratoking]

Thanks for that link, I think. The original post in that thread is messed up. It you don't believe in mojo, then don't chime in because I don't want to hear it. Wow...

[John_P_WI]

Too bad the links to the sound clips played by GK on the KF tribute amp are broken, that would dispel the whole myth that only KF could build a good sounding one....

Anyone know working links?

[Ken Moon]

This guy has built some great TW clones and variants with his own NON-KF layouts and all 18-ga teflon wire, and they are awesome amps, according to all reports.

[img:347:336]http://paulrubyamplifiers.com/liverpool ... _small.jpg[/img]
[img1105]http://paulrubyamplification.com/MiriamGuts.jpg[/img]
[img1132]http://paulrubyamps.com/TimSmithGuts2.jpg[/img]

[Alan0354]

Thanks for that link, I think. The original post in that thread is messed up. It you don't believe in mojo, then don't chime in because I don't want to hear it. Wow...

I believe in mojo, I just find it hard to believe that no other clones can copy the original to get the same sound and are missing something. That's what I called "magic" of the original amp that I find hard to believe.

Sounds like from here, people do manage to copy very close, might not be exactly the same, but can even be better.

[rp]

You know, bread (real bread from a bakery) is just flour water salt and yeast, but there's lots of bad bread out there, still it's pretty easy to make good bread. Exquisite bread, pretty rare, not so easy.

[M Fowler]

You haven't heard all the clones built so you have nothing to base your statement on.

[Mark]

Thanks for the link HBGB.

A few quote from the article.

The one idea I've seen speculated is pretty tough to refute (or prove I guess), that is using lead dress as "invisible" capacitors.

The capacitance value would only be a few picofarads and certainly wouldn't effect tone. I've tried on several occasions with Trainwreck amps to run the cable along the chassis to get some sort of advantage. I've found good co-ax sounds the same and is a lot quieter.

I don't think it's the transformer per se, though the relatively high primary impedance probably has something to do with it. Glen Kuykendall has a Pacific OT wreck. Because of his unique status as the patron saint of recorded TW samples he's been able to audition many other TW amps. Some with the Stancor OT. apparently they all do the right things. The Pacific loaded amps are more "aggressive".?

I think this statement contradicts itself, I do think it is the transformers and this was apparent to me in my earliest stages of noodling with the circuit in 2004. The power transformer has to hold the supply pretty stable so sag doesn't create mush.

These are variables that may be found on any KF TW Liverpool or Express.

I'd like to see these variables as of all the pictures I've seen, I thought the amps were quite consistent.

I'm inclined to agree that lead dress had to be the secret "voicing" since all the amps use the same parts. I also think that the particulars of the power supply, especially the use of a 1k resistor instead of a choke, is part of the overall formula. But exact clones have been made from reverse engineered examples with only limited success!?! Reports of amps serviced by Ken are that they were returned to all their former glory. While I've heard KF amps that were serviced elsewhere after long periods of MIA that never again sounded any better than the many clones. So what the hell was Ken doing to these amps that made the pick attack go crunch and the sustain go bwaaah. Rather than a spikey thwack and fwizzz like the copies. Glen Kuykendall built himself a couple of clones with every part NOS and TW OEM except the Mallory filter caps. And his findings were that the filter caps made a huge difference in getting closer to the sound of his original. This also corresponds with the idea that unwired circuits are partly responsible because the filters he ended up with were some boutique product that was supposed to be like the older caps!?! I might interpret that as higher impedance (or ESR, if that's actually different). So now we have unseen circuits hiding in the lead dress AND NFB and possibly PFB loops hiding on the power rail. But I've never seen a TW that left his care with anything but the original filters inside. So that only leaves lead dress.

The filter caps made a huge difference, I've tried huge paper in oil filters amongst other caps, and I didn't hear any difference from filter caps let alone a huge difference, in fact I don't remember Glen saying this either.

I don't see any science in this thread, it's all Ken touched the amp and behold it was a thing of great beauty.

I put it all down to the design, the transformers and the tubes.

[Cantplay]

Copying an amp by component values is only correct if you actually measure them.

There can be quite a bit of tolerence, especially in caps.

John

[Mark]

Wasn't this done at one stage where people worked out the cathode bypass caps on the first stage were typically larger than the quoted 22uF.

There were a few other observations noted as well. A search of the site would reveal what they are. At the moment I can't remember all of them.

[matt h]

(deleted)

[vibratoking]

Quote:
The one idea I've seen speculated is pretty tough to refute (or prove I guess), that is using lead dress as "invisible" capacitors.


The capacitance value would only be a few picofarads and certainly wouldn't effect tone. I've tried on several occasions with Trainwreck amps to run the cable along the chassis to get some sort of advantage. I've found good co-ax sounds the same and is a lot quieter.

Lead dress can make a very big difference. If you trying to get capacitance to ground by running leads against the chassis, not so much. If you couple the plate wire to the grid wire and/or cathode wire, you can hear big differences.