Emerson PIO tone caps

[Colossal]

Anyone use/like/hate/love Emerson Paper In Oil tone caps?

http://emersoncustomguitars.bigcartel.c ... -capacitor

[lord preset]

Not Emersons specifically but I have installed NOS Russian PIOs in a few of my guitars - to absolutely no affect that I could tell. OTOH I have never had a lot of use for guitar tone controls and have never been happy with what they do. I tried the PIO in hopes they would be more usable but no dice, at least for me.

[Colossal]

Well that's a bummer and exactly what I was wondering; whether a PIO cap might make an audible difference. I actually do use my tone knob, a lot. I am not unhappy about what I am getting out of it, but am rewiring a guitar and was thinking about seeing what the fuss was about.

[sepulchre]

I've not tried a PIO in my guitars but I use the heck out the control. Probably worth a shot, just to see if there really is a difference or if it's just high end cap sellers promoting cork sniffing.

[matt h]

(deleted)

[VacuumVoodoo]

+100
Nevertheless, I'd like to get my hands on one of those caps. Just to check what generic PIO hides under that pretty heatshrink sleeve.

[Cantplay]

Emerson appear to be shrink wrapped Russian K40Y-9 caps.

Most Gibson come with .022 uf (223J) For my taste I find that a bit too much. .015 makes the tone knob more useable. .022 is really only useable from 8-10 on knob.

In general, the bigger the cap the darker the sound. Cap is still in circuit with tpne knob maxed.

I use the Angela copper/oil caps when there is room. They're a little more than the Russian caps, but they're fresh stock.

John

[VacuumVoodoo]

Russian K-caps, I suspected that. Thanks.

Nothing beats my own custom caps.
Yes, it's gold splattered on Alu foil.

[Cantplay]

Solder 2 wires with alligator clips in place of the cap.

Now you can quickly try different values and brands of cap.

You can also use a different value on each pickup.

John

[Colossal]

Thanks guys, appreciate the comments.

FWIW, I just used a 22n polypropylene cap with low ESR. Sounds good to me, perhaps a bit more clear (a plus) than the green polyester chicklet cap that was in there. I may try a PIO on a future harness.

John, that's a good idea about alligator clipping. I may make up a test rig to do just that.

[tictac]

This subject has come up before....

The signal coming from your guitar pickups does not pass thru the tone cap

and out of the guitar. The tone cap is bleeding some of the signal to ground.

The value of the cap and type of potentiometer is the determining factor in

how the tone control will function and sound.

So does anyone really believe a paper in oil cap will bleed the treble to

ground better that a ceramic disc?

I've read some comments saying, "you can hear the difference...." There

are also people who could have sworn that a certain solidstate amp was a

tube amp in a blind taste test.

The placebo effect is a real phemonia....

TT

[Colossal]

tictac, I understand the function of the tone control and the signal path. I do not subscribe to mojo, only things which can be measured and evaluated quantitatively such as DCR, ESR, dissipation, inductance, Q, etc. My question was one regarding individual experience, not the suggestion of the existence of any mojo mumbo jumbo with PIO caps. As another poster said, the difference in sound between caps in this application may be most notable where there is a difference in value, not the dielectric.

However as to the ability of individuals to hear differences in woods, capacitors and resistors, I am reminded of a story where a fellow walks into a guitar store asks to play a high priced Custom Shop guitar and then plays a MIM version of the same shape and design. He then asks the proprietor why the high price for the custom shop guitar when he couldn't hear the difference between it and the value priced guitar. The owner replies "well, if you can't hear the difference, there must not be one".

[vibratoking]

I don't believe in cap mojo in the least. I will say the measurable items previously mentioned could have an impact. For starters, you can sim the pickup coil, volume and tone circuit, cable and input impedance of the amp. There are more reactive components than the average guy, whatever that is, may think. The point is, there is much more complexity than bleeding highs to ground. That's an over simplification. Here is a link to a paper with some simulation and explanation. I don't agree with his model and he left out the guitar to amp cable, but it gives an idea.

http://www.springer.com/cda/content/doc ... p174104272

[Cliff Schecht]

Guitar amp and cable obviously play a huge role in the overall response of your pickups. You are loading the RLC circuit formed by the pickups/pot/cap and as we know from experience, this makes a big difference in high frequency response.

As I expected in that paper, he doesn't account for the composition of the magnetics in your pickup either, which again plays a big role. Not to give the author of that paper a bunch of crap, he's put together a nice analysis, but there are (as vibrato mentioned) quite a few other factors that must be taken into account or you will be oversimplifying the entire system and not get a very accurate simulation. Who wants to volunteer to write some more accurate models for modeling pickups?

[rooster]

First off, I put no stock in a particular cap composition - of equal capacitance value - sounding better than another in the same guitar and the same tone pot. But I did read where Ken actually prescribed to such a notion, and went so far as to say that you should try the particular cap in reverse direction, that sometimes that will make a difference. Hm. And I have tried this so many times with so many cap types that it's not funny - to me it's complete nonsense. THIS SAID, I do run into the cat who will swear to me that he found the magic with a particular cap in his guitar. ??? And yes, I use the '59 LP tone pot hookup method.

OK, here's what I know for sure about the tone cap thing, and it's not a lot. I have found that SOME AMPS respond to the tone pot rolloff much better than other amps. From my experience it has been typically solid state amps that really have a reaction. For example, THE WOMAN TONE. Sure, I can approximate this into a fuzz pedal into a medium gain amp or straight into a high gain tube amp and get a tone similar to EC with a tube amp. Similar. HOWEVER, in my experience the affect is much more obvious into a transistor amp. Here I have to assume the difference is perhaps the clarity and speed of the SS amp, and that a tube amp somewhat masks the effect. The first time I heard this (the woman tone in spades) was playing into a Roland 20X Cube amp - and the affect was so obvious and dramatic I was literally stopped in my tracks at the time. This was on a high gain distortion model setting, BTW.

OK, but this had nothing to do with a special cap, and this would be my point. If I could do this with a Mylar cap, then I could do the same thing with PIO or polypropylene - the effect would be the same. I just don't see it as cap type dependent. Eh, my .02.