Fender Dual Showman vs. Marshall 100w

[RCGPNY1]

Just wanted to share an experience I had regarding these two amps.
Some friends I knew had a band where each guitarist used one of these amps. Now there really isnt that much of a difference between theratedpower of these two amps....20 watts? The Marshall has greenbacks...98db 1w/1m vs the Dual Showman which has 2 JBL D130F's
101db 1w/1m...so it looks like the Dual Showman should have a slight advantage....However this was not the case. I was seated in the back of a hall when the band played....they played loud......When the guitarist with the showman took his solos you couldnt hear him much just an occasional "oooo" when he sustained a note. The Guy with Marshall's solos
were much clearer...you could hear the attack clearly and the sustained part his notes were just abit more than the Fender. Both amps had fresh tubes, were biased poroperly etc...so whattya think is the reason why the Fender sounded like mud and the Marshall came thru clear.

[Phil_S]

Stage placement? How they were dialed in? Same type of guitar and pickup?
In that order!

[TUBEDUDE]

If he sounded like mud thru those JBL's something else was going on. Marginal filter caps, or ugly effects box with a low battery before the input, or something as simple as poorly adjusted tone controls.

[RCGPNY1]

Stage placement? How they were dialed in? Same type of guitar and pickup?
In that order!

Amps virtually next to each other....Both amps "dimed"...an ES335(showman) vs an SG custom Marshall. This was
1969 so no effects......Both amps were so new so....caps etc not an issue.
I think I might know why but was curious to see if anyone else had an opinion on it assuming nothing was wrong with either amp.

[xtian]

Fender tone stack vs Marshall tone stack! Mids mids mids.

[pdf64]

I assume there were 4, maybe 8 greenbacks on the Marshall?
Each doubling of the number of closely coupled like drivers in an array increases efficiency another 3dB, at the expense of directionality, eg less dispersion to the sides and back.

Plus the closed back of trad 4x12 forces all the sound out front.

So it may be that the Showman was louder to someone on the other side of the stage etc.
Pete

[LeeMo]

12at7 vs 12ax7 in the PI and Silverface tonestack vs Marshall tonestack. Then there's the cone area of two 15's equals about the same as four tens as opposed to 4 12's. Also a cathode follower makes up for the losses of the Marshall tonestack.
All that said , the Fender was designed to play clean ( no compression to speak of) and the Marshall was designed to crank.

Just my thoughts.

LeeMo

[Stevem]

Those small depth Showman cabinets even once Fender started to add ports to them where way way too small for the air mass those JBLs needed to move when drivin up hard!
I have a 1967 Bandmaster cab, which is the same thing as the Showman, but with 2 12 inch drivers and is ported, and this will top the JBL speaker set up by 2 to 3 DB with ease, which is a big change!

Also the tone stack in the Fender pumps out tons more bottom than needed when cranked up and as a result the amp gets farty sounding as it uses up the amps top wattage to make crap and not good sound / tone from cross over distortion thanks to those unneeded big ass PI coupling caps that tons of Fender amps use!

[Roe]

sounds somewhat surprising. this experiment should be repeated.

[Reeltarded]

Too much thought is going into this. The venue vs the stage setup. The volumes and settings of the amps. I have a BFDS and it is WAY loud, as loud as an SL.. almost. The tone of the amp goes shit bags at any voulme higher than around 7ish.

Stupid output transfrormers. Everything should have a 16R output.

[RCGPNY1]

All good answers....Marshall's power is concentrated in the midrange...Fender tries to be more wide range......The idea that the Dual showman box was too small really only effects the low end and actually, in theory, benefits the mids. The Dual Showman was actually quite loud right in front of the stage, and onstage, the Marshall with its sealed cab just projected better. Here comes the tricky part....The showman can do no more that about 150 watts peak...that is when your pick scrapes against the string....limited by its power supply and transformers. I had my Marshall 100 aluminum front amp tested by an old school tech and we found that it would put out about 179 watts continuous,albiet with a very distorted waveform, and actaully delivered peaks just shy of 400 watts. A year later when I had a Hiwatt dr103 tested under the same conditions it actuall peaked at 425 watts..Of course these are instantaneous peaks but IMHO its what lets you hear the attack of the note some much better than the Fender...It's swingig alot more voltage for the Pick against string peak.

[cbass]

I wonder what the results would be if the guitarist were going for a clean sound
I'm wonder if you trimmed the bass from the showman circuit if it would cut through better.
2 speakers against 4 or 8 isn't really fair

[RCGPNY1]

Along the same lines...years ago I was playing in a band on Long Island and had recently traded my Marshall 100watt for a Music Man HD130
head. As we started playing the sound man said I couldn't be heard in the back of the room. I told him I was blasting myself out onstage. Frustrated I traded back for the Marshall. AS we played the same club both nights...I set up the Marshall-same cab(1960) same place. The soundman said I could be heard clearly. I wasnt nearly as loud on stage as with the Music Man-which is basically a Fender derived amp. Voiced very similar but with the solid state preamp. So I have to go back to the differences in Power supply(much more iron in the Marshall) and frequency balance or "power response", and the Marshall's ability to put out more than twice the power on peaks. BTW the Marshall was equipped with a very rudimentary Master volume which I had cranked back a bit for the gig.

[Reeltarded]

Swap the DS circuit up to the PI. Blasting. Peels the skin back. Bet.

[KellyBass]

Another (could be) factor is the player. Some guys just seem to catch fire when they play. You know, the guitar player who plugs into the PA...and sounds just exactly like he does when his marshall stack isn't currently at the pawn shop.

Loudest guitar I ever heard? Dick Dale...dual showmans and JBL'S. Ouch.