Fender Tweed Experts

[jollygreen68]

All you Tweed experts (or just amp tinkerers in general), I have a few questions for you, if you are up for it. I've been doing a lot of research on amp building, started reading Dave Hunters The Guitar Amp Handbook, and listening to loads of tweed and supro amps on youtube. I've come to the conclusion that the build I want to accomplish is something along the lines of a Tweed Double Deluxe or a Supro 1688TN. Fairly simple controls, and a nice crusty, throaty, warm sounding beautiful 2x12 combo with around 20-40 watts. I know of most of the providers of the kits and parts and such. What I have questions about relate more to what I can do, and what I can't do, and how hard would it be to do. That way I can start planning what it is I'm going to be able to build.

So the first question I should get out there is for the guys who have built a Supro. On a scale of 1–5, how hard is it to assemble a working, great sounding Supro amp? Weber's amp kits uses ratings to give you an idea how easy it is to put together their amps. The Tweed Deluxe is one of the easiest and I've read enough about them that I'm fairly confident that I could put one together. It seems that the general consensus is that the Tweed Deluxe is one of the best beginners amps to build. I'm reading up and trying to learn as much as I can handle about amps, schematics, etc. But I'm still in the beginner stages. I just would like to know before I get into something I would have no chance of finishing. Or if it's possible, but with a certain level of knowledge. So what do you think about a Supro build?

Second, lets assume I just go with a Tweed Deluxe, Double Deluxe build 5E3x2, or Low Power Tweed Twin 5E8a, I would like to know the following things.
▪ Can I add tone controls to a Tweed Deluxe/Low Power Twin build (mid, bass, treble)? If so, how easy or hard would that be to add to the tweed schematic? I really want to be able to control the mids, bass, and treble and I'm not keen on the idea of 1 tone knob.
▪ Can I add a gain control pot to the Tweed Deluxe build so that I can control the amount of gain or clean headroom, or is that not possible with a Tweed Deluxe circuit? Should I instead look at the low power tweed twin 5E8A instead with it's cleaner amounts of headroom and the presence pot which I've read is more or less like a gain control itself? Although I'm not a fan of presence control on my current Fender HR DeVille 4x10. The presence is not a gain control and in fact just adds copious amounts of high end hiss. NOT what I'm looking for. I'm looking to be able to control the amount of gain, if possible.
▪ Does the 5E8a have a noticeably larger amount of cleanish headroom before it breaks up into that sweet "tweed" OD sound compared to the 5E3? Or does it take it a long time in the volume until it breaks up? Basically I LOVE how the 5E3 sounds, but I keep watching videos and reading from others that it breaks up and gets dirty really quickly in the volume (like around 3). I would like the option to be able to control that sweet OD and not have it come on until later or whenever I want. Is that possible?
▪ And can I add a switchable power attenuator or something like that, ala the EC Twinolux to cut the power in half? If so, how easy or hard would something like this be to add?

Thanks guys!
Best

[vibratoking]

I am a fan of the 5E3. Why ruin the perfect amp with a TMB tonestack? The single tone control works just fine. All the magic is in the volume control interaction anyway. It sounds like you want modify the amp before you really know what it does. I would suggest building a 5E3 and THEN considering modifying it if you think you need to. There are mods to reduce the splatty bass that some builds have. Look into them after you build it. The 5E3 is hands down a better amp than the Supro, IMO. You won't get spanking cleans from any Tweed amp IMO. I can make the cleans work, YMMV.

[statorvane]

Okay here's my $0.02. If you like tweed tone, and want some amount clean before breakup, AND a TMB tonestack - capable of driving a 2 x 12", I'd opt for the 5F6-A circuit. Yes you most certainly should be able to build it - much easier starting out with a TMB tonestack than trying to shoehorn one into a 5E3. The area I usually manage to foul up is the input jack wiring. I think that is the same for the 5E3 as the 5F6-A. Other than the tonestack, the bias on the 5F6-A is a little more involved than the 5E3. The addition of a presence circuit is pretty simple.

These amps can get pretty loud before breakup - the crunch on mine (2 x 10") would start around 5/6 on the gain.

There are several kits for these.

[overtone]

No Supro experience but regards the tweeds I agree with the above posts.
The chassis space is too tight to start adding bells and whistles.
Anyway your guitar volume is the gain control.
I play a'58 5E3 the Fezz Parka way:

• Turn the volume of which ever channel you are plugged into right up,
  turn the other one to around ten or so. Some tasty interaction is to be had by listening and slowly dialing around that 9-10+.
  Guitar volume rolled back for clean and roll up for dirt.

That's it, no need to overthink. Will work on most tweeds.
As mentioned above, if you need it louder look at the bigger brothers in the family.
Another was is just to set the volumes for onset of breakup and take the sound from there into a PA.
tony

[rp]

The smaller the amp the less you want a tone stack. I'll restate what vibratoking said: if you really want 5E3 then build it stock, it's one of the few perfect amps. If you really want a 5F10, 6G3, or 5E4A or 5F4 then you should build those, easy to add a mid-pot, and you can always cathode bias them (or switchable) if that's what appeals to you from the 5E3. If for some reason you have to have a TMB then you must be able to drive it, so build a 5F6A as suggested maybe drop the voltage a bit to the output and use 6V6s. Look up Huss's 6V6 plexi. You'll then have control and good headroom.

IMO build the 5E3 stock, build it well, use a proper speaker, if it's not for you there will be a buddy who'll go bonkers over it and you can sell it to him at cost and start on something else.

[jollygreen68]

Okay here's my $0.02. If you like tweed tone, and want some amount clean before breakup, AND a TMB tonestack - capable of driving a 2 x 12", I'd opt for the 5F6-A circuit. Yes you most certainly should be able to build it - much easier starting out with a TMB tonestack than trying to shoehorn one into a 5E3. The area I usually manage to foul up is the input jack wiring. I think that is the same for the 5E3 as the 5F6-A. Other than the tonestack, the bias on the 5F6-A is a little more involved than the 5E3. The addition of a presence circuit is pretty simple.

These amps can get pretty loud before breakup - the crunch on mine (2 x 10") would start around 5/6 on the gain.

There are several kits for these.

Thanks for your advice/opinion. I'll definitely think about that as I continue to learn, read, and decide what I want to build first. Thanks

[jollygreen68]

No Supro experience but regards the tweeds I agree with the above posts.
The chassis space is too tight to start adding bells and whistles.
Anyway your guitar volume is the gain control.
I play a'58 5E3 the Fezz Parka way:

• Turn the volume of which ever channel you are plugged into right up,
  turn the other one to around ten or so. Some tasty interaction is to be had by listening and slowly dialing around that 9-10+.
  Guitar volume rolled back for clean and roll up for dirt.

That's it, no need to overthink. Will work on most tweeds.
As mentioned above, if you need it louder look at the bigger brothers in the family.
Another was is just to set the volumes for onset of breakup and take the sound from there into a PA.
tony

Very cool! I did not know you could do that with the 5E3 or any amp for that case. I don't have a ton of experience with amps and all the tricks you can achieve with them. I know exactly what tone/sound I'm looking for, but am always learning new stuff about amps. I also didn't know you couldn't add some of that stuff to the 5E3 because of limited room.

Question for you and everyone else. If I wanted to get more of the 5E3 dirty, springy sounding, fat flubby bass sound with the somewhat early breakup, can I build a 5F6a with a Deluxe circuit? I LOOOOVE the sound of the 5E3 but haven't heard a 5F6a get the same sounds, even at volume, and would love to be able to build a 5E3 circuit but in a larger 2x12 or 4x10 cab with more power then the stock 5E3 produces obviously to drive more and larger speakers. So basically get the exact same sound the 5E3 produces, but just louder and with more speakers? Is that possible? What would I be looking to do in order to achieve that goal, because that IS my goal of building an amp.

Thanks for the advice and tips, I really appreciate it!

Best

[jollygreen68]

The smaller the amp the less you want a tone stack. I'll restate what vibratoking said: if you really want 5E3 then build it stock, it's one of the few perfect amps. If you really want a 5F10, 6G3, or 5E4A or 5F4 then you should build those, easy to add a mid-pot, and you can always cathode bias them (or switchable) if that's what appeals to you from the 5E3. If for some reason you have to have a TMB then you must be able to drive it, so build a 5F6A as suggested maybe drop the voltage a bit to the output and use 6V6s. Look up Huss's 6V6 plexi. You'll then have control and good headroom.

IMO build the 5E3 stock, build it well, use a proper speaker, if it's not for you there will be a buddy who'll go bonkers over it and you can sell it to him at cost and start on something else.

Thanks for the advice. The only reason I want a Mid pot though is so I can dial in more mids sometimes and cut it others. With the 5E3, I'm stuck with the same amount of mids at all times correct? As there is no way to adjust the mids as it's set in the circuit? Read the previous response and you will see what I'm shooting for in my amp build. The perfect amp for me would be something along the lines of a Victoria Double Deluxe or a Bassman with a Deluxe sound, but just louder. Still all the grit, and early breakup, and round, fat, flabby bass and mids, but at much louder volumes.

Thanks

Best

[vibratoking]

The 5E3 deluxe is a glorious amp IMO. I mate mine with a 4x12 when I want some extra 'coverage'. It is plenty loud to keep up with an unsensitive, heavy handed drummer. Sometimes, a little monitor support is necessary. BTW, turning either volume knob on a 5E3 deluxe full up is the wrong thing to do. The sweet spot is backed off from 12...set at 10 or so. You'll find it easily once you are aware of it. Maybe I didn't say it right the first time, you don't need a mid control with this amp. The interaction of the two volume controls on the amp and working the guitar properly will get you most tones. You have to work the vol and tone on the guitar as well as picking location. That amp is ALL about volume and guitar interaction. More so than any other amp that I am aware of.

[AcornHouse]

Something you haven't mentioned is any experience with amp building. You did say that you don't have a lot of amp experience in general.
That's a good reason, in itself, for starting with a stock Deluxe build and working on your soldering/construction skills. Since everything has an impact an everything else in an amp design, trying to shoehorn something that's going to fight you, can lead to a bunch of amp parts that do nothing but squeal. (Not to mention the potentially lethal voltages inside the chassis!)

You can do whatever you want, but if you start with a known working design, and get that to function as its supposed to, then you'll have made a positive step into the wonderful, and financially draining, hobby of amp building.

[M Fowler]

I just don't understand people saying the best beginner simple amp to build is a 5E3 Tweed.

It is not simple bolt together. These kits usually don't have the board holes lined up, you have to know to put the board in first otherwise you won't get it past the input jacks. The input jack wiring is not simple. Wiring the tube sockets in that tight space is for skilled builders.

A simple build would be something in a 17 x 8 x 2 chassis.

[AcornHouse]

I just don't understand people saying the best beginner simple amp to build is a 5E3 Tweed.

It is not simple bolt together. These kits usually don't have the board holes lined up, you have to know to put the board in first otherwise you won't get it past the input jacks. The input jack wiring is not simple. Wiring the tube sockets in that tight space is for skilled builders.

A simple build would be something in a 17 x 8 x 2 chassis.

I do agree on that respect. My first was an Ampmaker pp-18 kit. When I did the Triode 5e3 next, I found that I had a hard time keeping things as neat in that chassis. (And lower standoffs helped with the jack issue.)

[talbany]

IMO..I can't tell you how much time I spent modifying old amps into something else and always ended right back to stock and said..This is about as good as it gets!!
There's something to be said in those old tweeds that it's the sum of everything that makes them special.Change or alter any part of that system and it's a different amp and somehow changes that unique quality about them that made them good at what they do!! ..There is a reason why some of those circuits have stood the test of time!!
My advice is try to start with a classic that has those things you want and go as easy as you can on the alterations..

Good Luck!

Tony

[mhartman]

...And can I add a switchable power attenuator or something like that, ala the EC Twinolux to cut the power in half? If so, how easy or hard would something like this be to add?t

My first build ever was a 5E3. The one mod that I did was to add point-to-point "power scaling/VVR" to it. It came out ok-- not a lot of clean headroom in there to begin with though. I mainly did it to see if I could plan something out and pull it off without killing myself or blowing something up.