I'm familliar with the terminology but now that I have a sweet "Tweaked D-lite 44" with Bassman iron. I want more flavors of this stuff.
Is Normster's D-lite most like a Low-plate classic ?
If I want to compliment this build what next ?
I'ts only taken a few years to get the first one going, I want the next one done in a month or two... or six. Hey, It could happen.
Just a suggestion would help.
What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal
What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Heavens, an unused PI input !
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
I have a D'lite 44 that I bought in a kit.
It was my first modern amp build in years.
I did end up modding it a bit towards the Tweaked Layout.
But the single thing that really helped it was a Dumbleator.
Plus sometimes a treble bleed on the OD which can sometimes be an issue.
I'm sure you know that a tube buffered loop can allow the amp to turn up a bit more for better tone.
I like to add just a hint of ambiance of reverb and delay courtesy of a TC G Sharp FX unit.
Then I built a 100w ODS, High plate, Skyline tonestack, and great parts.
Sorry the D'lite just can't sound like a 100w ODS amp.
I'm grateful for the knowledge I learned on that amp, through this forum I was able to build a 100w Dumble from parts.
It was my first modern amp build in years.
I did end up modding it a bit towards the Tweaked Layout.
But the single thing that really helped it was a Dumbleator.
Plus sometimes a treble bleed on the OD which can sometimes be an issue.
I'm sure you know that a tube buffered loop can allow the amp to turn up a bit more for better tone.
I like to add just a hint of ambiance of reverb and delay courtesy of a TC G Sharp FX unit.
Then I built a 100w ODS, High plate, Skyline tonestack, and great parts.
Sorry the D'lite just can't sound like a 100w ODS amp.
I'm grateful for the knowledge I learned on that amp, through this forum I was able to build a 100w Dumble from parts.
Tom
Don't let that smoke out!
Don't let that smoke out!
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
A gelded version of a high plate Skyliner. A low plate, classic tone stack with the 70s 51/47K 12AT7 PI would give you a different flavor.chopstuck wrote:I'm familliar with the terminology but now that I have a sweet "Tweaked D-lite 44" with Bassman iron. I want more flavors of this stuff.
Is Normster's D-lite most like a Low-plate classic ?
.
TM
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
TM, so aside from the relays (and the lower output), what might put the cajones back in the gelding ? Keeping the general layout what could I do to get a more accurate Dumble tone ?
If I'm not being too broad.
If I'm not being too broad.
Last edited by chopstuck on Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Heavens, an unused PI input !
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Build a full output, full function D amp and never look back. Ask yourself this, why am I wanting to use the most generic stripped down layout, but yet want the most accurate D style amp?chopstuck wrote:TM, so aside from the relays (and the lower output), what might put the cajones back in the gelding ? Keeping the general layout what could I do to get a more accurate Dumble tone ?
If I'm not being to broad.
TM
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
The Brownnote D'lite amp was to introduce early followers of Dumble ODS to an affordable amp built or in kit form.
They first introduced it as a 6V6 amp then later was able to also
use 6L6 tubes.
It's a smaller chassis, doesn't have a choke, FX Loop, or Mid Boost.
It is a light version of the 50w Dumble ODS.
All that said, it can really be fine tuned more for a Dumble style tone.
But as I said, a full power 4x 6L6 ODS has so much more than any 50w amp it is hard to compare.
I would say a 6v6 D'lite could do smaller gigs.
And could be mic'd for larger venues.
But the neat thing about a 100w and the Dumbleator is you can really fine tune your tone at just about any volume.
If wishes were fishes, I'd have every iteration of Dumble amps.
But for now my ODS works great.
They first introduced it as a 6V6 amp then later was able to also
use 6L6 tubes.
It's a smaller chassis, doesn't have a choke, FX Loop, or Mid Boost.
It is a light version of the 50w Dumble ODS.
All that said, it can really be fine tuned more for a Dumble style tone.
But as I said, a full power 4x 6L6 ODS has so much more than any 50w amp it is hard to compare.
I would say a 6v6 D'lite could do smaller gigs.
And could be mic'd for larger venues.
But the neat thing about a 100w and the Dumbleator is you can really fine tune your tone at just about any volume.
If wishes were fishes, I'd have every iteration of Dumble amps.
But for now my ODS works great.
Tom
Don't let that smoke out!
Don't let that smoke out!
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Structo wrote:The Brownnote D'lite amp was to introduce early followers of Dumble ODS to an affordable amp built or in kit form.
They first introduced it as a 6V6 amp then later was able to also
use 6L6 tubes.
It's a smaller chassis, doesn't have a choke, FX Loop, or Mid Boost.
It is a light version of the 50w Dumble ODS.
That pretty much nails it Tom, though a la carte chassis were later offered in both classic, skyliner, ftsw and loop labeling. Moss really missed out on the full blown kit market. I tried my darnest to get a couple of the prototype 19" chassis with the loop send/return pots, he wouldn't even bulge at my generous offers. That chassis would have been the ticket for ODS built in loop projects!
Yes putting the D'Lite in context; 06' was before the fine layouts that we currently have here at TAG , pre CE chassis, pre AGB boards and the Ceriatone OTS line, way back in the dark ages of internet ODS knowledge.
So fast forward to 2014, why build a stripped down D'Lite to chase the Dumble holy grail tone if thats truly one's end goal?
I've built a couple of 50W D'lite's and think they are fine amps in the context of what they do and I think there is still room in the market for less is more, aka "Small Special".
I still say that if he wants a different flavor, the D'Lite (in this case, even a pair of 6v6's) concept would be great for a low plate funky OD entrance 2nd gen 70's platform, which is close to being my fav ODS family circuit.
TM
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
A good way to look at all this is rather simple..Really!..What makes a Super (AB763) a Super..4X10 and 6L's..What Makes a Pro Reverb..same basic thing but with 2X12 again 6L's..What makes a Twin...4X6L's 2X12 and 100 watts.. What makes a Deluxe Reverb ...2X6V's and a single 12 in a smaller cab!..TM, so aside from the relays (and the lower output), what might put the cajones back in the gelding ? Keeping the general layout what could I do to get a more accurate Dumble tone ?
If I'm not being to broad.
It's all basically the same amp just in different cabs/speakers and different power ratings, each serves there own purpose as a tool but nobody I have ever heard compares/confuses a Deluxe to a Twin?..2 Totally different animals.. apples and oranges..why should it be any different when it comes to D-style amps..IMO
Call it the D- Luxe..
Oh TakenTony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Good way to put it Tony.
Could you (and any other knowledgeable builders) give us a run down of the different Dumbles and what is the core sound/style they will help you to achieve (IYO)
It would be interesting to hear.
Thanks
Rog
Could you (and any other knowledgeable builders) give us a run down of the different Dumbles and what is the core sound/style they will help you to achieve (IYO)
It would be interesting to hear.
Thanks
Rog
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
ToneMerc, Talbany Structo and Rob,
thanks a bunch for the replies.
I should confess I bought the D-Lite chassis and boards from Moss about 5-6 years ago IIRC. Bought Heyboer iron, I spent a few months gathering parts for my build with other orders (to keep the shipping costs down).
When it was done, I really didn't get much of a charge out of the amp. It sounded very cold and cold biased. Like a blackface non-reverb Fender.
I tried getting the amp to liven up by biasing the 6l6's hotter and it helped a bit but nothing remarkable. I added the PI balance pot and measured a pair of plate resistors at 100k and 109k. Balanced and better yet. Still not great. I did the majority of the tweaks on the "Tweaked Layout" but again nothing remarkable. I then found the mis-marked 2M2 as 22M feedback resistors on V1. Bingo, got gain! I then re-biased the output colder to spec.
Now I had pretty good clean but a buzzy OD. Still no magic, hmmm.
I should say that each time I failed, I put the amp back on the shelf until it called to me again, about 3-6 months later.
I then tried ceramic caps in the low value areas where I had SM and polystyrene.
It was as I said before, a night and day difference.
Where the SM and poly styrene caps were clear and sterile the ceramic was smooth and warm.
Now I understand what you guys have been touting all these years.
I thought about what I was hearing. Since I have built many crossovers and have toyed with differnt crossover points, slopes and over/underlapped transitions, I thought that the ceramic cap has a lower "Q" factor than the mica. Seems that the mica has it's effect across a narrower freq band and sounds like a steeper slope filter than the ceramic. The ceramic, possibly due to a less homogenous distribution of materials in the substrate ( ie. cheaper)seems to be acting at multiple frequencies that approximate the center frequency.
I may be wrong about the reasoning but that's what I think I'm hearing.
All said it has been a fun and worthwhile learning experience.
The funny thing is I can't wait to do another.
I guess it's time to pour over the generation and tone descriptions for my next build.
Yes, I'm going to do a 100 watt something.
Again thanks a bunch.
thanks a bunch for the replies.
I should confess I bought the D-Lite chassis and boards from Moss about 5-6 years ago IIRC. Bought Heyboer iron, I spent a few months gathering parts for my build with other orders (to keep the shipping costs down).
When it was done, I really didn't get much of a charge out of the amp. It sounded very cold and cold biased. Like a blackface non-reverb Fender.
I tried getting the amp to liven up by biasing the 6l6's hotter and it helped a bit but nothing remarkable. I added the PI balance pot and measured a pair of plate resistors at 100k and 109k. Balanced and better yet. Still not great. I did the majority of the tweaks on the "Tweaked Layout" but again nothing remarkable. I then found the mis-marked 2M2 as 22M feedback resistors on V1. Bingo, got gain! I then re-biased the output colder to spec.
Now I had pretty good clean but a buzzy OD. Still no magic, hmmm.
I should say that each time I failed, I put the amp back on the shelf until it called to me again, about 3-6 months later.
I then tried ceramic caps in the low value areas where I had SM and polystyrene.
It was as I said before, a night and day difference.
Where the SM and poly styrene caps were clear and sterile the ceramic was smooth and warm.
Now I understand what you guys have been touting all these years.
I thought about what I was hearing. Since I have built many crossovers and have toyed with differnt crossover points, slopes and over/underlapped transitions, I thought that the ceramic cap has a lower "Q" factor than the mica. Seems that the mica has it's effect across a narrower freq band and sounds like a steeper slope filter than the ceramic. The ceramic, possibly due to a less homogenous distribution of materials in the substrate ( ie. cheaper)seems to be acting at multiple frequencies that approximate the center frequency.
I may be wrong about the reasoning but that's what I think I'm hearing.
All said it has been a fun and worthwhile learning experience.
The funny thing is I can't wait to do another.
I guess it's time to pour over the generation and tone descriptions for my next build.
Yes, I'm going to do a 100 watt something.
Again thanks a bunch.
Heavens, an unused PI input !
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Chopstuck: I have good and bad experiences on both ceramic and sm caps.
I still have a batch of good sounding ceramics(same as seen on the #124 pics) but also some very bad and fuzzy sounding.
Anyway the good sounding sm caps(treble and master) I do prefer in skyliner amps with classic od and WITH a dumblelator.
Anything else like HRM or classic od without a dumblelator I prefer ceramics on those spots.
Knowing schematics is nice but it all comes down to knowledge about different parts sounding good together. I'm glad you found something that helped your amp sounding fenomenal!
I still have a batch of good sounding ceramics(same as seen on the #124 pics) but also some very bad and fuzzy sounding.
Anyway the good sounding sm caps(treble and master) I do prefer in skyliner amps with classic od and WITH a dumblelator.
Anything else like HRM or classic od without a dumblelator I prefer ceramics on those spots.
Knowing schematics is nice but it all comes down to knowledge about different parts sounding good together. I'm glad you found something that helped your amp sounding fenomenal!
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Cool discussion guys.
I too have experience with Silver Mica and high grade Ceramic capacitors and other film caps.
I also read a report online (it has to be true, right?)
There was some report that some brands of silver mica caps were defective and therefore should be replaced.
Might have been around the late 1990's or later although it clearly was found on early bulletin boards or newsgroups.
Back in life I got back into tube amps, around 1994.
Actually, I was overwhelmed by the information available.
You have to understand world wide web thinking and early attempts at smearing some products.
Put metal film resistors in their proper place, as well as low tolerance carbon film resistors.
Back then we didn't have support of specifications of passive components online, although it improved rapidly.
We had catalogs.
Now just about anything you want documents on is available through the interweb.
I Myself, have found through the hyperbole:
I find silver mica a touch smoother than ceramic disc caps.
(Depends on value and voltage)
Take it with a grain of salt from a everyday guy.
But, sometimes you want something different from smooth.
Maybe, something with texture, something palatable that you can use in your tone stack.
The best course always is if you have the ability to try different types of caps in particular, you are only guessing or trusting someone else's opinion about a type.
You can arrive at a good opinion when more than five people say, yeah, that is a good mod.
Try to tune your amp to the volume you will play at a gig, small or big.
If you do not gig, then tune your amp to the loudest volume you will play during practice.
Then tune your tone.
All amps sound different from quiet to shouting levels.
I too have experience with Silver Mica and high grade Ceramic capacitors and other film caps.
I also read a report online (it has to be true, right?)
There was some report that some brands of silver mica caps were defective and therefore should be replaced.
Might have been around the late 1990's or later although it clearly was found on early bulletin boards or newsgroups.
Back in life I got back into tube amps, around 1994.
Actually, I was overwhelmed by the information available.
You have to understand world wide web thinking and early attempts at smearing some products.
Put metal film resistors in their proper place, as well as low tolerance carbon film resistors.
Back then we didn't have support of specifications of passive components online, although it improved rapidly.
We had catalogs.
Now just about anything you want documents on is available through the interweb.
I Myself, have found through the hyperbole:
I find silver mica a touch smoother than ceramic disc caps.
(Depends on value and voltage)
Take it with a grain of salt from a everyday guy.
But, sometimes you want something different from smooth.
Maybe, something with texture, something palatable that you can use in your tone stack.
The best course always is if you have the ability to try different types of caps in particular, you are only guessing or trusting someone else's opinion about a type.
You can arrive at a good opinion when more than five people say, yeah, that is a good mod.
Try to tune your amp to the volume you will play at a gig, small or big.
If you do not gig, then tune your amp to the loudest volume you will play during practice.
Then tune your tone.
All amps sound different from quiet to shouting levels.
Tom
Don't let that smoke out!
Don't let that smoke out!
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Rogrogb wrote:Good way to put it Tony.
Could you (and any other knowledgeable builders) give us a run down of the different Dumbles and what is the core sound/style they will help you to achieve (IYO)
It would be interesting to hear.
Thanks
Rog
To be honest I have been asked this question many times over the years and although I think all the various D-style incarnations are wonderful amps for me personally it's very difficult for me now to explain or quantify TONE! (I give up)..Everyone has an opinion/style
Here I have done several reviews on some of the personal amps I have built for myself over the years and perhaps you can get an idea of what I think and how I perceive these various instruments..
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 11&start=0
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 75&start=0
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... generation
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... man#118517
IMO..I still consider these a kind of nitch amp!.. Some sound better to me with my Strats others humbuckers..Some might not work so well in certain environments,(especially where volume is big concern)..These amps can be different so there will be an adjustment period and some time to be able to fully master and control the amp (it is an instrument) all the nuances that make up a great amp! ..The ODS is a very versitile design but still has it's limitations and there is no guarentee that if you build one version that it will be the beat all end all amp and fill all of your needs..IMO no 1 generation has done that for me yet!
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 30&start=0
This place is filled with builders tweaking and modifying there incarnation to try and get the amp to respond to all there needs and expectations and for those who fall into that trap can be stuck in tone seeking (non crystal lattice)vacuum from which you may never return..I barely made it out alive!!:lol:
I hope some of my reviews help!
Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
Thanks Tony. useful to hear your take on things.
The 102 build - yeah all over that when I did mine.
The 70s build - never seen before, I didn't come across it researching my 2nd gen. Excellent thread with useful info.
KT88 and MM are very interesting, gave me some more insight into your Beck interpretations.
I must say I am loving my 2nd gen now, especially through the TL806 with Swamp Thang.
My Dlator is better than ever and now I have the Minimix and G Major 2, the sound has never been better,
A big help for me has been the NFB lift, especially for playing at home, gives some of the takeoff of 102 Feedback City. I have it lifted most of the time and just back off the guitar volume a tad.
I really like that "clean" OD sound. Through a Marshall I sound like everyone else, but not many I know have that clear OD sound, in fact no one, so I get a chance to sound different, to sound like me.
The 102 build - yeah all over that when I did mine.
The 70s build - never seen before, I didn't come across it researching my 2nd gen. Excellent thread with useful info.
KT88 and MM are very interesting, gave me some more insight into your Beck interpretations.
I must say I am loving my 2nd gen now, especially through the TL806 with Swamp Thang.
My Dlator is better than ever and now I have the Minimix and G Major 2, the sound has never been better,
A big help for me has been the NFB lift, especially for playing at home, gives some of the takeoff of 102 Feedback City. I have it lifted most of the time and just back off the guitar volume a tad.
I really like that "clean" OD sound. Through a Marshall I sound like everyone else, but not many I know have that clear OD sound, in fact no one, so I get a chance to sound different, to sound like me.
Re: What Dumble is a d-lite most similar to ?
I too am appreciating the feedback.
I bit the bullet and ordered the 100W trannys from MC. I'm leaning toward a build with the Dumblator built in and/ or reverb too.
Keeping that in mind I don't want to squeeze it all in to a regular CE chassis and give my self the room to spread out and reduce crosstalk, forgive me for the HI-FI word there.
I like the NFB lift switch, been doing that and cathode vs fixed bias switches in a lot of my builds lately.
I guess I have the D-lite for clean and just got my old 64 Vibroverb sounding stellar again so I suppose I'm interested in other cool tones.
Mid boost and tone stack lift are great, I don't seem to care for the D-style brite switch much since I'm mostly using single coils.
I need to search for the "dirtier" amp family I suppose.
I bit the bullet and ordered the 100W trannys from MC. I'm leaning toward a build with the Dumblator built in and/ or reverb too.
Keeping that in mind I don't want to squeeze it all in to a regular CE chassis and give my self the room to spread out and reduce crosstalk, forgive me for the HI-FI word there.
I like the NFB lift switch, been doing that and cathode vs fixed bias switches in a lot of my builds lately.
I guess I have the D-lite for clean and just got my old 64 Vibroverb sounding stellar again so I suppose I'm interested in other cool tones.
Mid boost and tone stack lift are great, I don't seem to care for the D-style brite switch much since I'm mostly using single coils.
I need to search for the "dirtier" amp family I suppose.
Last edited by chopstuck on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Heavens, an unused PI input !