rant: volume, wattage, and tone

[JoeCon]

Ampfab,

Great idea...thanx!

[matt h]

(deleted)

[jeeptechfred]

I don't typicaly spend the time to build and amp smaller than 30 watts because I have many memories as a kid in a band with a sucky amp asking the drummer and other guitar player to play quieter so I could hear it. I also don't want to haul my gear out to a jam or a gig and be frustrated because I can't keep up and have it ruin my night. I have found that 50 watts suits all my needs but I don't typicaly play outside. If I did I would want more. I think that You can afford to "cork sniff" about tone only if you can hear it. It's also worth mentioning that there is a tangible point where the volume of your amp starts to interact with the guitar, I find that very insipering as a player. Can't always get there at lower volumes.

[ampfab]

I agree that "louder is not better", but it's extremely important that an amp be "loud enough". that's all i'm saying.
"watts" is terminology that the guitar player is familiar with. if a player has learned, through his experiences, that he needs an amp that is 50 watts, that's what he's willing to bet his money on. if you want to sell him an amp, you need to either convince him that your 30 watt amp will work or build him a 50 watt amp.

[John_P_WI]

I remember seeing Greg Koch many years ago playing with an old tweed champ tipped back on a folding chair... just sayin'.

Any more, if your 30 watt amp with a good cab isn't loud enough, either your a stadium god or outdoor hero or...

Smaller amps getting the output section to sing is where it's all at IMO.

[RCGPNY1]

I have played in lots of bands....and venues....everytime I tried to downsize my rig by going with a small combo of even 50 watts or less, Ive had troubles. Another question is."Do I have to play clean". I found amps like Fred Taccone's RSA 23 plenty if I didnt have to play loud and clean, but in a "oldies" band I was in, I found the more watts the merrier. Also headroom doesnt necessarily mean "clean headroom". Most 50 watt Marshall will, in fact, produce about 50 watts with a visibly clean sinewave, but put out more like 90watts when in heavy distortion. I tested an early 100 watt Hiwatt, which was even cleaner at rated output and delivered 180 watts in heavy distortion.
Not only that but when tested for reaction to peaks it did just shy of 400 watt
instantaneous peaks. That's like when you initially scrape your pic against the string...those Marshall and Hiwatts are swinging alot of voltage. Ive never seen a Fender amp, for instance capable of that kind of dynamic response. Most British amps will bury a Fender amp of similar rated power

[Structo]

I don't have any kids (good thing) so I was wondering how many members, sons or daughters go to live shows.
Or better yet, how many over 21 are going to clubs at least weekly?

Nothing like hearing the live "Marshall Kerang!" on an opening chord.

Or other types of music.

I also encourage seeing other types or styles of your fav.

Like a large city Symphony live.
If you haven't, you owe it to yourself as a musician to see and hear a full orchestra live.

[ampgeek]

I have three lovely daughters (now 23, 21 and 19) who all participate in live music regularly here in San Diego and the surrounding areas.

The 19 yr old is in college in SF so she has expanded our geographical "influence" of late.

My wife and I started them all off early with regular live shows of the bands that we grew up with (Rush, The Police, Aerosmith, etc..) but they have now branched off into their own areas of interest which I think is great!

The Cochella festival has been the "big thing" for the last five years or so. I don't hear/see a lot of them participating in the local, small venue rock shows as they seem to prefer the club scene with the popular "re-mixing" DJs and the dub-step, techno, whateverthehellelseitiscalledbecauseitchangeseveryminute!

They do occasionally come out to see me play and they always chime in on how whatever amp I am building sounds. So....they definitely know and appreciate that powerful Kerengggg!!

Cheers,
Dave O.

[Structo]

Thanks for the response ampgeek.

Sounds like you have a great family and all love music.

[teemuk]

they seem to prefer the club scene with the popular "re-mixing" DJs and the dub-step, techno, whateverthehellelseitiscalledbecauseitchangeseveryminute!

Electronic music?

[overtone]

Grid Leaks too large - that makes the output tube bias point unstable AND introduces noise.

Thanks Ian, that gave me the nudge to try what I've had in mind for a while and drop the grid leaks down on my old '58 Deluxe.
They measured ~210k and now at ~180k the "blocking distortion" on hard hitting low notes is totally gone.
Much better than yanking the 0.1uF Astrons; merely two A+B 1M2 resistors tacked in over the existing grid leaks.
Of course it still hisses like a snake if you stop playing

[stephenl]

I remember seeing Greg Koch many years ago playing with an old tweed champ tipped back on a folding chair... just sayin'.

Any more, if your 30 watt amp with a good cab isn't loud enough, either your a stadium god or outdoor hero or...

Smaller amps getting the output section to sing is where it's all at IMO.

I lived in Milwaukee for about 10 years and used to catch Greg's shows whenever i could. He's one of my favorites.

[stephenl]

Ian,
Thank you for venting! This is precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about. The 32Watter is certainly in the same class as the exploding 55Watter.

Just to be clear, are you saying the grid stoppers are too large? Or the grid leaks?

Grid Leaks too large - that makes the output tube bias point unstable AND introduces noise. The voltage generated across the grid leak from grid current opposes the bias and it is statistical in nature, that is there is an AC noise component generated along with the DC bias shift.

I run an own design 6V6G PP for the HiFi. In that I use mosfet source followers with current source loads to drive the 6V6 grids. It is absolutely dead quiet background, no his or hum at all.

Grid Stops can be made quite large BUT remember that when you look at a max Rg1 value on a datasheet, that is the max resistance from grid to 0V, that is it is a maximum value for Grid Stop + Grid Leak.

Cheers,
Ian

Hi Ian,

Does the "too large grid leak issue" apply only to fixed bias amps or cathode bias as well? On my cathode biased KT66 PP PA, I have 10k on the stoppers and 220K leaks. Should I lower the leaks?

Respectfully,

Steve

[John_P_WI]

I lived in Milwaukee for about 10 years and used to catch Greg's shows whenever i could. He's one of my favorites.

Greg still plays many of the festivals in Milwaukee, it is great to have a beer and brat and listen to his guitar craft work.... Now only IF summer would come around. His tone has changed - not for the better - IMO, since he has become a Fender clinician.

[matt h]

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