Sacrilegious Amp models

[Phazor]

Just wondering if anybody has a hardware amp modeler they like. Not a plug in but a hardware like a Fractal Audio Axe-Fx 2 MK2 or a Kemper. Most of my amps are over 40 to 50 years old. The Kemper is said to capture the sound of these old amps. I don't want to let go of my amps by the way.

I have a friend that swears by the Fractal. The tracks he makes have Fat overdriven sound most of the time.

Its Sacrilegious to the TAG community to even talk about this stuff but what do you think about it anyway.

[xtian]

It's not heretical to talk about modeling here. After all, who knows what real tube amps should sound like?

I think modeling is a viable solution for live performance and recording. The only time it really falls flat for me is when I'm playing with no sound reinforcement (meaning mic'd, thru a PA) and I want to hear a real tube section pushing guitar speakers, instead of a modeler pushing a full-range PA speaker.

[Zippy]

The Kemper is said to capture the sound of these old amps. I don't want to let go of my amps by the way.

I have a friend that swears by the Fractal. The tracks he makes have Fat overdriven sound most of the time.

How do the modeler amps sound when you back off the volume control on the guitar or it you change your pick attack? Are they at all dynamic like a good tube amp?

Curious.

[Phazor]

Hey Zippy thats the million dollar question.

I have not played thru a Kemper but it is suppose to respond like your use to with touch. That said you would need to take some snap shots of a Dumble in OD mode, Clean mode and so on to make things approach what the Dumble is capable of. There are Youtube videos with people explaining what they like. I grew up in the 50s and 60s so I'm not much into the heavy metal stuff that I mostly see on Youtube with the amps described. I like blackface clean to overdrive range out of an old vibroverb but that amp has broken down on me on gigs and is just becoming an antique.

I also agree that something like a Dnynaco 70 tube stereo style of amp would be a great power amp for whatever modeler you would go with. Its a matter of weight for gigs really.

[Zippy]

Hey Zippy thats the million dollar question.

I have not played thru a Kemper but it is suppose to respond like your use to with touch. That said you would need to take some snap shots of a Dumble in OD mode, Clean mode and so on to make things approach what the Dumble is capable of.

Thanks. I was wondering whether the state-of-the-art had evolved. I guess the answer remains "no". Even if you take several snapshots, it would ignore the continuum of changes in touch and attack.

I'll stick with tubes for a couple more decades.

[LeeMo]

Maybe this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml3_rpyz1S4
I like the sounds that he's getting.

LeeMo

[cbass]

That's pretty cool not really a modeler is it?

[mhartman]

Or this: http://youtu.be/mLcncIRe4Qg / http://youtu.be/g1vRNFRXWI8 (Kemper with a '78 Dumble ODS profile).

I'm enjoying my Kemper (but still hanging on to my tube amps).

[Phazor]

Kemper with a 78 dumble model. Ya thats what I'm talking about. I don't plan on getting rid of amps either but that is a nice tone.

I guess next thing is a rocket or express. would it ever bloom with a volume knob like the real thing. I have an AC30 TB that's great. never played a real express/rocket. I would have to capture my AC30 with H30's. Thats a great rock tone.

[mhartman]

By the way, I'm looking to use my Kemper as an amp tweak tool on my next build. You could do a profile of each change/tweak that you make to the amp and then you will have the ability to A/B (even C) them instantly. It won't be exactly like having the ability to A/B the real amp with regard to the tweaks, but it will provide another level of feedback on the difference that the tweaks make. It would be really interesting to do this with different brands of caps or resistors changed out throughout the amp (or NOS vs. new). Obviously, the amp settings, cab, mic, etc would have to remain constant throughout the profiling process.

[jaysg]

I look at the modeling section of TGP a lot. It's interesting. It looks like the Kemper takes a snapshot of an amp with its settings and you can vary that a bit after the fact, but it's not continously variable. If you model a clean blackface tone, you can't crank it, and vis a versa.

There are probably some where I live, but no store has anything. GC shows Kemper, but my local stores do not stock it and the people there have never seen one.

[mhartman]

... It looks like the Kemper takes a snapshot of an amp with its settings and you can vary that a bit after the fact, but it's not continously variable...

This is correct. If you want to model the entire tonal range of an amp, you'll want to take several snap shots. That being said, you can do a lot of adjustment from a single profile (gain, EQ, vol, etc.), but the further you go, the further away from the profiled amp you are getting. All of that being said, the profiled amp does capture a full dynamic range of the particular setting, so you can use your guitars volume knob to taste.

The biggest difference between the Kemper (or an Axe) and a real amp is the fact that you're listening to the amp as mic'ed instead of just the amp in the room - it is slightly different when you're there playing it. That being said, it makes recording a breeze.

[rhardman]

I use an ancient Johnson J Station with 27 models that I have tweaked that I am very happy with.

But I am very curios about some thing new. The bias modeling app for iPad.

Anybody try it yet???

[ER]

I picked up a used fender mustang V head on ebay, I'm amazed by this thing. I sold a delay and an octave pedal that covered the cost of the amp and the delay and octave patches on the amp blow the pedals I sold away.

It cleans up when you back off your guitar and responds well to picking dynamics. The earlier modeling amps I tried made every guitar sound the same, strat, humbuckers, danos all came out sounding like a fake digital amp. With the mustang, every guitar retains it's character.

I originally got it to try a low budget wet-dry-wet rig with the mustang left and right (it's a stereo amp) and my dumble build in the middle. Now I'm just going to build a pine combo cab for the amp like a slightly over size bassman with 12"s instead of 10"s. It weighs nothing.

Lindley and Lowell George originally wanted Dumble to make an amp that sounded like a cranked deluxe but powerful enough to play onstage. After thinking about that I dialed up the tweed deluxe amp and tweaked it pretty close to a dumble sound, changed the speaker sim for an early 60's fender cab JBL sound, added in reverb like on lowell's ODR (you can add it pre amp like a '63 box in the amp, or post like a studio, it even has dwell, in out levels like a dumble). Everything is tweakable, even bias and sag. 75 watts per channel stereo, it is like a cranked deluxe with more balls. add a compressor patch on front, and it's little feat for days.

The fact that it can record into my DAW via USB at 24 bit, built in tuner, foot switchable and affordable is just icing on the cake.

Sorry to sound like an advertisement, but after owning dozens of tube amps over the years, I have to say I'm really impressed with the tones this thing makes, the variety and convenience of it all is pretty amazing. It nails or betters many of the amps I've owned over the years and has a bunch of great sounding effects too.

I would really recommend checking one out one of the big stereo mustangs. If you know what kind of sound you're looking for there's not many tones it can't dial in, pull up the amp, the effects, the speaker cab, tweak the parameters a bit and save the settings. It's worth having one just for recording.

I'll stop talking now go check one out.

-ER

[Zippy]

By the way, I'm looking to use my Kemper as an amp tweak tool on my next build. You could do a profile of each change/tweak that you make to the amp and then you will have the ability to A/B (even C) them instantly. It won't be exactly like having the ability to A/B the real amp with regard to the tweaks, but it will provide another level of feedback on the difference that the tweaks make. It would be really interesting to do this with different brands of caps or resistors changed out throughout the amp (or NOS vs. new). Obviously, the amp settings, cab, mic, etc would have to remain constant throughout the profiling process.

The only REAL way to A/B the amps would be to record the raw signal from the guitar and feed that to the inputs of both amps at the same level. Nowadays, it's more easy to do that and it eliminates the changes that one hears when the weak link in the loop (the player) changes attack on the guitar.