On Celestion Blues, Ken Fischer and some tips from him...

[Turbojunkie]

Hi Guys,
Was browsing the internet last night and came across this article:

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/10651

Most guys here have probably read it already, but just in case, there it is...

I had no idea that Ken was Celestion's go-to guy when they were developing the Alinco Blue for reissue. Makes sense now knowing this...a Rocket amp (and of course a Vox) just absolutely loves a set of Blues!

Out of curiosity, is anyone running their Liverpool builds with these speakers?

Also, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I've tried some of Ken's tips for AC30/Rocket tone fine-tuning that are in the Trainwreck Pages of Gerald Weber's book, and they have worked out great:
Again, just in case anyone hasn't read about them:

*With a Head/Cab setup, try using 20' of 18 gauge power cord for your speaker cable...it definitely brings out the chime & ring of EL84's without any harshness...sounds and "feels" much better than my more expensive shorter/thicker speaker cords. His theory was that this filters out some of the "trash" that all guitar amps can generate.

*When using a open-back speaker cab, use just one back panel mounted on the bottom side (about halfway up, or a little under halfway) instead of two smaller panels on top and bottom. This also increases the chime/ring factor, and reduces any low-end "boominess" that cabs sometimes get...with this setup you can turn your bass up a bit to fatten up the tone without it getting ugly.

Anyone know of other speaker cab tricks to try for fine-tuning your sound?

Got the day off, just thought I'd throw these few things up here for those who don't already know...

TurboJunkie

[cap217]

I have some questions about this. I have 2 sets of blues:

-Vox label, H1777 cones, brighter, harsher, more scooped, broken in
-Celestion label, no H1777 stamp, no stamps at all except for a Sf7507, sounds bigger, fuller, more full mids.


Now I know the china vs UK stuff. But the Vox label should be china and should not have H1777 cones. The celestion should be UK and should have H1777 cones. These speakers also have different bell indentations.

My speakers are opposite and its driving me crazy! I am selling an amp with blues so whatever blues are UK will be the ones I keep.



I also asked celestion (dr decible) if they ever made a blue for Ken Fischer. I remember someone saying they had 2 blues from Kens supply. I got a "NO, we never made a blue for Ken".


http://imageshack.us/a/img833/9061/mpan.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img69/1700/va47.jpg

[cap217]

Easier for you guys

[Turbojunkie]

Huh, maybe that article is B.S. Add it to the confusing, mixed-up info that surrounds Ken Fischer and the Trainwrecks in general

Not sure about your speaker differences, and haven't forgotten about your tube issues cap217, just hyper-busy around the house tightening things up for the winter...been popping on here for a minute or two when coming inside to make fresh coffee...

I'll keep surfing and asking others about these things with you, should have some time tonight...

I'll keep throwing ideas at you as I go too, but not knowing each other that well, don't be offended if you're way beyond some of the suggestions I make

Talk Soon,
TurboJunkie

[Structo]

The deal about 20' of 18ga cable "filters out some of the trash" doesn't sound credible to me, although maybe the resistance of the cable does something.

I don't like to run anything less than 14ga on a speaker cable, or bigger on a more powerful amp.

Of course there are people that claim a high priced power cable will improve the tone of an amp......

[Turbojunkie]

I'm sure that like so many other tone related subjects, YMMV. The difference it made with my rig was pronounced, but I was using a Quantum 3' cable made of 12ga. Oxygen-Free wire...

It certainly does defy Hi-Fi logic, my experience with auto/home audio systems tells me that thicker cables of higher quality wire is the way to go. Having had this book with the Ken Fischer suggestions for years, I never bothered trying it, because it didn't make sense to me. Actually, it still doesn't!

But for whatever reason, my friends and I found that the cheap 20' run of 18ga lamp cord and bottom panel only on back of cab are marked improvements with this Rocket/Celestion Blues rig,...more jangle, less annoying low-end boom. Haven't tried it on other rigs, as this is my only setup right now.

Take Care,
TurboJunkie

[Cantplay]

I don't think wire heavier than the secondary of the opt is necessary.

Try a free experiment: A single twisted pair pulled from a length of cat5. Yes.

I could imagine that long runs of parallel wire could have some capacitive effect, but itf a few pf/foot only.

John

[Structo]

Anybody ever measure the capacitance of a 20' vacuum cleaner cord?

[cbass]

The last amp I built had a cord from a central vac.guess thats why it sucks so much

[Cantplay]

Zipcord is appx 20pf/foot.

John

[Structo]

OK, we know that they suck, but does anybody know if that small of capacitance will have an affect on a high current signal as it does on low voltage input signals?

[Roe]

it is possible, sometimes, to hear how different speaker cables differ. Usually, a thicker, shorter cable is good but whatever works

[Turbojunkie]

This is definitely rig specific...brought my setup to a friend's house last night, did the cable comparisons on my Rocket/2x12 open back cab w/Blues rig and his Germino/4x12 w/ 014 cone G12H's....FWIW, we both preferred his rig with the 3' 12ga cord, and mine with the 20' 18ga....YMMV for sure.
TurboJunkie

[rooster]

I think you are on to something with the cable. As to Dr. D, I too, have emailed him and found him to be helpful. This said, I am thinking the prototype period of the Blue was in Ken's court, other's as well. I say this because I have read various KF articles over the years about it, and notably VG mag columns written by Ken. He was definitely in the mix.

As to your confusion with the paper markings, I think it's pretty obvious that the H1777s are real English made cones. Dr. D would support this I'm sure. Are the baskets Chinese? I couldn't tell you but signs point to yes. Certainly you could see Celestion sending English cones there as production ramped up. But read on..

The article is correct, an original set in an original AC30 cranked a bit sound very complex. I like that thing about the longer fibers but it sounds a little dodgy. No offense to Ken intended. The one thing that I notice about original cones vs. reissue (of any brand speaker) is the thinness or thickness of the original cones vs the reissue; but even more important IMO is the actual voice coil material itself. The early versions were paper of course, and not all voicecoil paper is the same. For example, on this voicecoil subject, when was the last time you or one of your friends reported that their speaker actually lit on fire? Well, back in the day, the early Celestions would do this and, yes, I have seen the results first hand. Today, I never hear of this.

Getting back to the speaker cable thing, I have a magic box that is made by Bruce Zinky. Its called the 'Buzzkill'. He never made them for production and he told me that he had epoxied everything up so I shouldn't try to reproduce it. I haven't. What it does is mask or bury high gain amp fizz and it does it very well. It's heavy so I assume there are coils of wire inside with selectable taps, thereby reproducing your 20 foot cable without the actual cable.

[Reeltarded]

My speaker cable experience goes from lamp cord to heavy 220v twistlocks. The big stuff rules. It's faster sounding in the lowend no sheepdip. Is it more phase correct or something? I dunno. I like it for clearing up something i never knew was cloudy. Plus!

Power cable?

Power cable... ummm.. power yeah, but cable? I wonder if using a power conditioner negates the effects of special power cabling.