Good choice for clean, full, balanced amp?

[Randall]

Actually those 2 x 6L6 amps I listed before are actually around 35W-40W, and aren't much louder than 25-30W amps. But they will certainly meet the 'clean full amp' criterion. YMMV

Perhaps they are not much louder per se, but a 6L6 amp is going to get you into trouble with the "loud police" a lot faster than a fixed bias 6V6 amp in a small club or pub gig. And they both do clean pretty well.

[dobbhill]

My experience is that the 6V6 amps run out of "clean steam" before they catch up with my drummer. My Deluxe Reverb barely can keep up without going into distortion.

I might suggest an amp that can use 6V6's for small gigs, and 6L6's or EL34's for a larger venue. I have a JTM45 that I used that way in the past. I can't remember if I made OT impedance adjustments or not.
D

[Leo_Gnardo]

Some things to consider, while we're batting around "clean" power levels of 15 to 50W more or less.

Article/interview with John Meyer, founder of Meyer Sound back in the 80's in either Recording Engineer/Producer or Mix, sorry I forget which, but what he had to say stuck in my ear, so to speak. "People's ears interpret distortion as power. Hard rock & heavy metal bands and their audiences won't like my speaker systems because they are so clean & distortion free." When presented with undistorted audio, our ears call for more more more volume until the amp, speaker or our hearing mechanism starts to distort.

I've seen this demonstrated in practice. One act I worked with had a clean-sound demanding guitarist/vocalist who had an amp rig capable of over 4000 watts driving his monitor speakers. That's not a misprint - four thousand watts. Plus, but whats a couple hundred watts on top of 4000. Through super-efficient EV and JBL drivers, and none further than 14 feet from his ears. Effectively, he had his own medium size PA system. Many shows, when the whole band got rockin' even this wasn't enough, and the musician would signal the monitor mixer for more, more, more volume.

Unless the rest of the band, including first & foremost the drummer, can hold back & play at reasonable volumes, even a 50W guitar amp can quickly get swallowed up in the racket. Those that can play with intensity, while keeping the volume reasonable, are gold, solid gold. And rare as rocking horse turds.

[Firestorm]

Even a 100 watt amp is only a 30 watt amp if you don't turn it up.

As has been said, 6V6s will run out of headroom before you catch up to the drummer. 6L6s are better; 6550s or KT88s, better still. If you build it powerful, but keep it turned down, add a couple of levels of bright boost a la the Express. And a presence control. To give it a little punch, try a James tone stack for mid boost. No matter what you build, if you need to make it louder for a particular venue, add speakers; maybe a 1x15 cab for smaller gigs, plus a 2x12 cab for larger ones. Use a multitap OT to make that possible.

[mark enger]

1+ on the 6l6 deluxe aka 5e5 pro, awsome amp 4 inputs, 4 excellent tones, not real complex build, I did one for a rock-abilly player he was floored, i really like it with el34s my self but the whole amp changed from fendery to marshally in a great way, stays clean pretty good even with 12ax7 in v1 with a 12ay7=70% gain id think it would be perfect, very fun amp. mark

[Randall]

The original question was specifically directed at a clean 15 -30 watt amp. Assuming the OP knows what he is asking, shouldn't we be keeping it there?

[Leo_Gnardo]

The original question was specifically directed at a clean 15 -30 watt amp. Assuming the OP knows what he is asking, shouldn't we be keeping it there?

Maybe so. It's hard to box in the TAG crowd when we start brainstorming. Doesn't worry me a bit. One thing that would be awful would be to build the amp THEN find out it "isn't enough."

But depending on what the rest of the band is doing, 4 KW might not be enough...

I think we've offered some good practical answers. You could choose any by dart board method and do well. Again, besides the amp, choosing an efficient speaker that makes the most of the wattage will be a wise move. I think auditioning & choosing a proper speaker could well be more important than selecting an amp design when the amp is still in the daydream/planning stage.

Another suggestion I might send to the OP is, if you can, borrow and try out amps that have been suggested (Bassman, Bandmaster, Deluxe, Princeton, JTM45, whatever) before you commit to a build. You "might" find you need more power and not be bracketed-in by your original 15-30W spec. There's no penalty for changing your mind.

[Smokebreak]

The original question was specifically directed at a clean 15 -30 watt amp. Assuming the OP knows what he is asking, shouldn't we be keeping it there?

..and everything about this statement is a good point. If Ipresnall had left out the "15-30w" bit, we'd all probably be screaming "TWIN"(or insert favorite Fender 6L6 circuit here). I can't think of a more notoriously clean amp. But if you've ever played a Twin cranked, it too breaks up wonderfully, just eardrum shatteringly loud.

I think the point has been well made here that bigger amp=more headroom=more perceived clean volume. All depends on what the gig is, and why Ipresnall wants a 15-30w amp, if that is indeed the case.

I would add that while AB763 Normal Ch aka Cali Dreamer is indeed an "old" project, it is far from undocumented. I'll plug into mine tonight. Come to think of it, it's a largeish room, so I'll just bring 2 of em.

Leo i dig that story, and the suggestion to try out a bunch of amps, see whatcha like, then build it.

[LeftyStrat]

My experience is that the 6V6 amps run out of "clean steam" before they catch up with my drummer. My Deluxe Reverb barely can keep up without going into distortion.

My experience as well. Very frustrating when you want to play clean.

For a player who wants to play clean, 2x6L6 might be the ultimate. I've played a lot of amazing amps with this PA. Super Reverb and Ampeg VT40 just to name a couple.

Though I can't imagine either without the reverb.

[statorvane]

I have a JTM45 that I used that way in the past. I can't remember if I made OT impedance adjustments or not.

I did the same with a narrow panel 5F6-A clone. I upped the impedance w/6V6s to 8K. The amplifier usually began breaking up around "6/10" with 6L6s, or 6V6s. A simple P-P amplifier. However I really liked the tweed overdrive tone, which is why I opted for 6V6s on occasion - to get it at a lover volume as it could get pretty painful with the 6L6s (basement workshop - not a gig). If you are after clean, I would think the tweed Bassman would get you there w/6L6s.

[randalp3000]

I've been chasing a loud clean amp for the last two years and have been through 20-30 big name amps trying to get there. Now I'm broke and started building my own.

The closest I've gotten is a parallel triode straight into an AC30 PI and output through a Celestion Gold.

Another that came very close is a Dr z Galaxie or tweed super/LP twin.

What I've found is I never have enough power or clean volume when the band starts rockin'. You can always turn it down but you can't turn it up without clipping eventually.

[martin manning]

...a 100W ODS on the clean channel is pretty awesome clean tone.

[Zippy]

If you build an amp with 30W distortion-free, clean power, I bet it'll have much larger iron and tubes than a 30W amp.

[Reeltarded]

Yeah. 100w is minimum for making that kind of headroom. Pair of BF Twins is awesome.

[Leo_Gnardo]

If you build an amp with 30W distortion-free, clean power, I bet it'll have much larger iron and tubes than a 30W amp.

The transformers can be as big as a bowling ball. Doesn't matter. Ask for a 40W peak from a 30W rated amp and you can get away with it for an instant, then you're in the soup. Psychoacoustically, our ears will forgive a bit of clipping on note attacks and still sense "clean."

If there was such a thing as an easy to construct tube version of a dbx 165A compressor you could build in, that would be something to write home about. Play hard and all you get is a Steely Dan type clean compression. Nice, but 30W and it don't get any louder. Just clamped. Like an FM transmitter. Drowned out by the drummer (again.)

Clean tone demands power. No way around it. Efficient speakers definitely help. OK I've beaten that drum enough. Hey let's hear from the OP. See any ideas you like?