Les Lius Clone Build - DON'T HATE!

[Kinkless Tetrode 66]

I have been wanting to build this pedal for quite some time now, I think the original sounds ok, but I would like to ask the Tweed Twin and 5e3 experts of how I could make it sound more authentic. I am also looking for a way to create an increase in volume on the boost switch. I realize that many of you will say "If you want a 5e3 or a tweed twin - build one", or simply say that this is an inappropriate forum to post this; but on the contrary, I would like you your advice for it to sound more "tweed". Although, despite what LL claims, I know it at best it will only sound like 40-60% of the way there. I think that, like myself most people would agree there is NO WAY you can get a metal box and 30$ in parts to sound like a 5e3 or twin.. The idea is to make a good, transparent OD pedal that hints towards a 5e3 or Twin (and that Tchula?!??) I have heard a lot of bad things about the Les Lius, but I would be curious to at least build and try it. Could you please help me make this sound more tweed, and it would be great if anyone has an idea for the added volume for the boost. This is the circuit I would be working from. Thanks!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4S6WGZqyEGs/T ... s_vero.png

[catears]

That layout doesn't look like the schematics I have seen for the Les Lius. Infact, this genius decided to put mismatching info (including the more than likely correct schematic and the layout that you posted) here: http://revolutiondeux.blogspot.com/2012 ... -lius.html

I could write a huge response to this, but I will keep it as short as possible.


Resistor play: wire a 1m trimmer in series with a 2.2m resistor in place of R1 (collector to base resistor) 10k trimmer in place of R2 (bias resistor). This will not only let you find the combination that works best for tuning your transistor, it will also more than likely solve your "volume" issue.

Transistor selection: I always stay away from 2n5088s, don't ask me why, I never found them to be musical. From what I know of sean and talking with him over the years, he is not too fond of them either. Try a lower gain NPN like a 2n3904 or a 2n4401. Far more musical and should get you closer to your goal.

Diodes/switching: For one side of the switch you should put a symmetrical pair of diodes in place of D4. I would try something like a 1n270 or a 1n34a to get lower forward voltage. This will give you a more transparent clipping, but at the same time decrease your overall output from that point on, but with being able to fine tune how much you are feeding the base and the collector, you can compensate for this loss greatly.

CAP SELECTION: Don't go cheap, there are so little parts in the signal path, it will make a huge difference. With this circuit I would try 225 orange drops personally, or maybe even PIOs from mojo or something. You can also reduce C1 to something like .03 or .02 and/or C2 to .082 or .068.

The biggest problem, every combination would take so much time, my advice would be get a bread board and take a few hours listening and testing all of these things out. If you find something you like and want to have a circuit board made, let me know, I would be glad to help.

[Kinkless Tetrode 66]

Thanks! What about the idea of using oil in paper caps or blue molded caps?! Would there be too much noise..? I know that this is a snake oil legend but that could be cool!

[bluemeany]

The boost switch isn't increasing the overall "volume" of the circuit it is only increasing the gain of the transistor amplifier and therefore the clipping which occurs in those diodes. Those diodes clamp and limit the maximum volume you can get. For example a low forward voltage diode will clamp the signal to a maximum amplitude of +/- 0.25v.

The only way to alter this is to alter the diodes and they are crucial in this circuit but you can play and choose what suits you.

Why not use two volume pots setup to be switchable?

You shouldn't have to play around with biasing this circuit - it is a self biasing arrangement, changing those resistors will alter the character of the circuit and may make it more or less "tweed". Different transistors will sound different too. I use bc108 and bc109.

Paper in oil or audiophile caps in this circuit? Waste of time imo, just use decent quality components and you won't be able to tell the difference. Remember - more expensive doesn't = better tone, what works and sounds good is good. The difference in tone that cap type will create in this circuit is minimal to nothing when you compare that to just picking the right transistor and diodes.

[catears]

Could you please help me make this sound more tweed

You shouldn't have to play around with biasing this circuit - it is a self biasing arrangement, changing those resistors will alter the character of the circuit and may make it more or less "tweed"

Isn't that what he asked for?

Paper in oil or audiophile caps in this circuit? Waste of time imo, just use decent quality components and you won't be able to tell the difference. Remember - more expensive doesn't = better tone, what works and sounds good is good. The difference in tone that cap type will create in this circuit is minimal to nothing when you compare that to just picking the right transistor and diodes.

Since when is a 225 or 2ps orange drop an 'audiophile' cap? A ajax blue molded cap will sound the exactly the same as a Panasonic ECQ? Just because it's a low voltage circuit doesn't mean the material in the cap won't carry electrons in the same fashion. If you have that mentality, could I come over and replace the mullard caps in your 60s tone bender with some ECQs? You won't notice the difference right? Not to sound like a smart ass, but think about what you're saying. It's not like I am telling him to go buy astrons at $40 a hit. You can spend an extra $3 on some quality caps and, to a good ear, you will get a better result every single time.

Also note, when using transistors with a different package like a bc 108/ to-18 type, watch the pin out. Something like a 2n3904 or a 2n4401 like I recommended has the same pinout/package as a 2n5088. Always check the pinout.

[Kinkless Tetrode 66]

Thanks for the reply! I think I was misunderstood by people thinking I was going to put some astron capacitors... Anyways, I am still looking for a correct vero board diagram, all the diagrams I look at conflict the next. Can someone show me the "right" vero board diagram? Thanks.

[bluemeany]

Whoa, I didn't say 225 or orange drops were audiophile. What I was suggesting was that spending 150 fat ones on caps for this circuit is really not a great idea when you may as well invest that cash into something you'll probably use and enjoy much more (iron for an actual tweed?).

By using more expensive caps you won't get a "better" result - you'll get a different one. Better is subjective to taste. I don't value a vintage tonebender because it has mullards, I value it because it is original. If it had cheap ceramic you couldn't have those either.

The bias resistor is the large collector base resistor. Changing that won't affect the tone that much at all really. The collector and emitter resistors set the operating point those are the ones I would suggest have a fiddle with. It was a poorly constructed sentence - for that I apologise to you both. However, changing those resistors will not affect the overall volume of the circuit, the volume (the peak to peak voltage seen at the top lug of the volume pot) is clamped by the forward voltage of those diodes used for clipping. Unless you alter that you won't see a difference in volume, just gain, which is a different thing.

No need to go nuts just because someone else suggested something. Instead of addressing my post why don't you post a suggestion that will actually allow him to get more volume from the circuit instead of gain.

Kinkless, here is the right vero; http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2 ... -lius.html (it's verified as working). I apologise for not having the best vero layout on my site. As another suggestion could I put forward the great circuits on the runoffgroove site? I think you will enjoy those much more

[catears]

No need to go nuts just because someone else suggested something. Instead of addressing my post why don't you post a suggestion that will actually allow him to get more volume from the circuit instead of gain.

Your suggestions were basically agreeing with half of what I said in different words followed by how you won't be able to tell the difference in the way caps sound. Put ceramic caps in there and see how they sound, maybe they are golden, more than likely they will be noisy and shrill, but what do I know?

Just because its a common emitter amplifier doesn't mean you should start adjusting that 330ohm value. By adjusting the emitter resistor to ground value to a higher or lower value you are getting less or more transistor gain, respectfully, not volume, on top of opening up a whole new can of worms with the so called 'boosting' circuit, which is where he asked for more "volume", in the first place- that I admittedly misread for 'more overall output', and is still unanswered by both of us. Answer: I would reduce r4 in your original layout, resistor strapped across said boost pot (basically same theory as the emitter resistor/gain relationship stated above). If you adjust the 330ohm from emitter to ground in the slightest, I'm talking 50 ohms this way or that, you change the character of the entier circuit drastically, not just the boosting mode.

Or if the OP wants to bypass how we would approach modifying this circuit to satisfy his ideas entirely he could always google something like "npn common emitter amplifier" and get a better feel for himself of how this circuit works.. Also, seeming that this circuit is somewhat based off of the electra overdrive, I would suggest, after reading up on the common emitter amplifier stuff, comparing schematics of the two, listening to them, and then be the judge of what's what.

Best of luck.

[bluemeany]

Agreed.

The Electra overdrive topology is a great little circuit and sounds very good for its parts count. It's drawback lay in the limitations found regarding volume output and the lack of real "mods" you can do to the circuit. The electro Harmonix epb-1 is another very simple pedal that sounds surprisingly good in an overdrive context, check out the love pedal Englishman (and death of a vox), that does sound pretty good!

On another, completely unrelated issue I find it interesting that many pedal designs boast about a large input impedance (1M, 2M even 10M). However, lots of people really enjoy the way the Electra and fuzz face type circuits react to their playing and volume pot (along with naturally roling off those highs) and they have a pitifully low input impedance. It's one of those things where many think "need more input impedance" to drive cables and the such but when it comes down to it lower impedance devices can actually sound very pleasing and their "quirks" be very enjoyable.

[vibratoking]

It's one of those things where many think "need more input impedance" to drive cables and the such but when it comes down to it lower impedance devices can actually sound very pleasing and their "quirks" be very enjoyable.

Yes, but if you serially connect several low impedance devices, then you quickly get garbage. High input impedance is the right approach in most cases, but there are specific situations where it is not true. If I am designing effects boxes I have to design for the case that holds true most often.