Capacitor Breakin jig - Any Ideas?

[vibratoking]

Can some one explain why it is necessary to do this so us newbs can understand?

It is not necessary. Some claim that Sozo caps sound better after something like 100 hours of normal use, which they call the break-in period. Sozo says 20 according to the email posted above. There are some that believe in this and others that don't. No technical proof either way that I have seen. You don't need to do anything except use your amp and see if it starts to sound better with time. Your choice whether you believe it or not.

[tsutt]

There is a local commercial amp builder that burns his in. I'm guessing thats what this is about.

Thanks
Todd

[vibratoking]

There is a local commercial amp builder that burns his in. I'm guessing thats what this is about.

He could be burning in the caps or he could be burning in the whole amp in order to catch any premature failures.

[C Moore]

Can some one explain why it is necessary to do this so us newbs can understand?

Todd

It is not necessary.
IF you can hear (and REMEMBER) the audio difference in a cap that has 1 hour play time, or 50 hours, I feel sorry for you. Your ability to enjoy live music (that includes you, playing alone, in your living room) will be over.

[teemuk]

...But you can always steal a more or less random oscilloscope capture from a famous DIY audio forum - a scope capture displaying a line conditioner switchmode power supply having main filter caps bypassed with smaller caps and a mysterious glitch in the wave that appeared in the process of performing such mod, then claim it's all relevant to audio or (gulp) capacitor "burn in" and end up being totally credible to most of the people visiting your site.

Unfortunately.

[img:600:202]http://www.sozoamplification.com/images ... period.jpg[/img]

I wonder why Sozo didn't also "loan" this part from the very same forum and very same thread from which he "loaned" the "burn in" pictures:

Let's see. Differences in the waveforms over time may just be differing noise on your power lines coming in. Did the refrigerator kick on? Maybe the elevator in your apartment building? Garbage in, garbage out, as it were...

As for spikes that are here now and gone later... was the power switch thrown at exactly the same phase angle on the power line waveform? If you happen to flip the switch near a zero crossing, you might not see a spike that you will see when you flip the switch when the voltage happens to peak.

I know it doesn't sound nearly as technical or romantic as capacitor burn-in, but either of these phenomena might be explained by your test leads failing to make a tight connection.

There are many possible explanations for what you see, capacitor burn-in is just one. With a test that has so many uncontrolled variables, I don't think it is possible to say exactly what is the cause of the variations you have seen.

[Phil_S]

The cap will out well and start breaking in well in about 20 hours. It’s not worth it, it’s too short of time.

Yeah, I'm not surprised. If you want to break in the caps in an amp, fire up the amp and run a radio into it for a day or three.

[vibratoking]

Those stolen and misrepresented scope plots are a huge red flag. I'll never buy another Sozo cap for that reason alone. Although there are plenty of other reasons not to as well.

[boots]

I believe in breaking in coupling caps. I was able to tell the difference in the sound of the amp after 20 hours or so. I burned them in for about 80 hours before I quit, but the most noticeable difference was after the first couple days.

I set up a function generator on a sweep function, running a 10 second sweep that covered the range of the guitar (plus a little). I set the amplitude to about 1 volt p-p, and ran it right into the amp. You can pull the output tubes out of the amp so you don't have to listen to the siren sounds, and let it run constantly.

I shut it down every day long enough to play through the amp and listen for a difference. Even after the first day, the tinny highs had gone away, and the amp seemed to have better bass response.

If you can't sit around playing guitar all day, every day, this seems like a worth while way to speed up the break in process.

[yalesmith]

Function generator, correct me if i am wrong but that is a fairly expensive machine? I

[boots]

I think they are typically not cheap, but I was lucky enough to score one that my brother in law salvaged out of a dumpster behind his workplace.

Actually, I think you could build one pretty cheaply if you can get your hands on the right IC chip. I think there is a "sig gen on a chip" available.

[teemuk]

I shut it down every day long enough to play through the amp and listen for a difference. Even after the first day, the tinny highs had gone away, and the amp seemed to have better bass response.

In other words, your ears had adapted to the sound of the amp, or perhaps you experienced some physical changes that altered your hearing perception (e.g. listening the amp at monday evening tired from work, stress level high, neck tensions, and so on vs. listening to amp at saturday evening, relaxed after a few beers, etc.)

There's so much that one can hear that really isn't there and so much one can't hear that really is there that ears are like the weakest instrument for serious evaluation of audio ever.

Did you actually use any other test gear to determine that somekind of "break in" had taken place? Can we see some measured and repeatable results of these tests?

I think I know the answer to this already.

[boots]

Teemuk, you're absolutely right. It's possible that I have convinced myself to hear the results I want to hear.

No question that it's all subjective. But I am really happy with my amp after sweeping the coupling caps for 80 hours, and as long as I believe they have "broken in", then it was well worth the effort to me. Your mileage may vary!

To be honest, I was wishing for some way to document the changes that may or may not have happened, and I'm not really sure how to do that. I have a decent O'scope, but I'm not sure the best way to use it to evaluate cap "break-in". Does anybody know of an appropriate test procedure?

I'd like to see somebody who knows what they're doing research this a little further. Sounds like you can't believe everything you see on the internet....

[yalesmith]

I am guilty of this phenomenon, i definitely heard a difference but It could be my imagination. Also, I know Nik at ceriatone who i am sure knows his stuff agrees with a break in period or at least suggested this....

"Hi

Yes, we do have a few thousand Sozo caps lying around, indeed! Smiley

I am trying to make a jig to burn em in.

I guess just hook up AC from the wall to em. But doing em 50 pcs at a time, that might require some thinking on the jig.

Thanks

Nik"

See thread here:

http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=1793.0

[teemuk]

I think there are often mix ups in concepts of...

"Burn in" - as in for the whole device. Done mainly to weed out "infant mortality"; mistakes and errors in assembly process, parts and components that were faulty straight from stock, errors in early design stages, etc. Basically this often means running the device at some ample loading for few hours. If the device fails, errors are sorted out, if it survives a chance is it will last several years in normal use. This has nothing to do with supposed capacitor break-in.

"Forming" - of capacitors, Initially performed in the factory that manufactures the said capacitors. After forming process most of them also "age" the capacitor by exposing it to higher than rated voltages in elevated temperatures. This will fix any faults in oxide layer that may have appeared during the manufacturing. Slight reforming may take place after shelf life but this is almost an instantenious process and never takes e.g. several minutes or (gulp) hours. In such case the capacitor should be tossed out as faulty component.

"Burn in" - as for capacitors. No serious technical literature (like books about components, manufacturer whitepapers and datasheets, studies, articles and presentations for instances like AES or magazines of the art) I'm aware of discusses such thing.

[Structo]

Yes but do film caps really "form"?

I know that the aluminum oxide in electrolytic caps does not really form until high voltage is applied.
But on polyester caps or other film caps that use film and foil, what changes over time?

My guess is that when people buy or build a new amp, it is the tubes that are actually burning in.
In other words, some tubes sound a bit harsh when they are new but after some period of time they mellow a bit, especially the top end frequencies.

Rather disturbing about Sozo claims and Oscillographs that are from another site.....
Good marketing or bullshit?