Overdrive Special Reverb........#60

[ampdork]

Shad, AFAIR members here often posted since the existence of this board that they like the sounds Lowell George e.g. achieved with the pre overdrive reverb of his ODRS 100W. So don't you think that it's perhaps a bit bold to predict what other individuals will prefer - just based on your own personal taste?


I never said it did not sound nice (on the cleans especially) but I'll stand by MY OWN OPINION that I like what I like... ;O)


IMO this argument is only valid as long as you think about the spring reverb section of a guitar amplifier only as some kind of ambience effect that shall simulate the delays present in natural ambiences.

OK well hate to break the news to you but that is what reverb is.
Reverb exists in nature and the effect is derived from trying to emulate that NATURAL sound.
So if we are arguing what sounds most like NATURE then yeah I guess you have to follow nature to do it convincingly.

But if you think about a guitar amplifier as some kind of musical instrument, that shall "generate" artificial sounds that artists find in their minds, than IMO it doesn't make much sense any longer to compare the "art" ificial sounds created by an artist when using the spring reverb section of a guitar amplifier as a feature of a musical instrument with the sounds present in "natural" ambiences.

Why did reverb ever get on an amplifier Max? Was it to crate an artificial musical sound or was it trying to emulate a natural ambiance?
If your going to pretend that the concept was not to emulate this natural effect then your just BSing yourself but hardly anyone else.
If you can accept the fact that the goal of reverb to begin with was to emulate a natural ambiance then I guess my argument is as ever valid as before.

If your saying that they were after some artificial yet musical sound I am wonder where all the amps with flangers are at?


And what AFAIK many guitar players like about the sound of a spring reverb (post or pre OD) is exactly that it doesn't sound like playing in Covent Garden or the Grand Canyon etc., but that it sounds artficial and may perhaps even sound weird.


It was an example Max. Nature does not have overdrive... so you can take your amp, overdrive it, and then reverberate it into nature (edge of grand canyon). However you cannot take your twin reverb up to "overdrive peak".
Sooo in Nature you can take your ODS and reverb it into the grand canyon and guess what? IT SOUNDS NATURAL!!! :O)
Now how in nature can you take a big clean reverberated signal and then overdrive it? That's right...you can't.

So Max which is more like nature? OD into reverb or reverb into OD?


So if one starts to think about a guitar amplifier as an instrument to artificially generate artificial tone and timbre your arguments are IMO no longer valid and then IMO it's just a matter of the personal taste of an individual guitar player if she/he prefers the sound of a pre OD reverb of an ODRS or the sound of a post OD reverb of an ODR - just as with Les Pauls and Strats etc.

No my arguments hold up well thanks. I never once said you cannot have your personal preference. I said one is NATURAL one is less so.
Why you cannot accept the fact that nature has inculcated our senses is beyond me.

When you find overdrive peak let us know and please get a clip or two.

But also Max I have had both types of reverb and asked many people what they felt was best. The dumble reverb circuit got chosen only a few times and it was always on the cleans. Once compared not a single person chose the dumble verb circuit.

I wonder why that is? I wonder if they had some internal guidance system that informed them? I wonder what could have filled that system with data to cull from? Could it have been nature?

:O)

Anyway to recap. I like what I like. My opinion is just that, an opinion. Why when I say "this is my opinion" that is what it is Max.

Also I am not reporting what others will like purely based on my experience. I actually had amps with both types and asked a lot of guys what they preferred.

There is a study of things where they look at results of past events, perform experiments to re create events and results. They gather enough data that they get really good at predicting events that have not yet occurred yet. Having applied this black art to this very subject of reverb I am confident predicting that people in the future will tend towards the same reactions a those from the past.

I know this is just crazy talk but I'm all outta chicken bones and tea leaves.





[/quote]

[boldaslove6789]

Max,

Yes, i prefer the post OD Reverb better, it sounds and reacts better, it's way more versatile than others I've heard.

The pre OD Reverb ODSR clip that you posted sounded good, but not nearly as great as other Post OD Reverb ODSR's I've heard recently (like all the Santana clips etc.)

Dumble did evolve into the Post OD Reverb after all......

These amps both have Post OD Reverb and they sound incredible...

Both of these amp also have separate Clean Overdrive Reverb controls, and not Send/Return controls

[Max]

Reverb exists in nature and the effect is derived from trying to emulate that NATURAL sound.

Shad, every spring reverb I ever played - including all those in the Dumble amplifiers with reverb I ever played - is IMO such a poor emulation of ambiences you find in the real world (be it a "natural" one like the Grand Canyon or an artificial one like Covent Garden), that IMO it doesn't make much sense to discuss wich one of all these spring reverb circuits delivers a more realistic emulation of the Grand Canyon or Covent Garden or whatever else real ambiences. Just my personal opinion.

Yes, i prefer the post OD Reverb better

Greg, thanks for explaining your point of view. My personal taste is similar. But I understand players who prefer the pre OD reverb, too. And I think that Lowell George achieved a great guitar sound with his pre OD reverb ODRS e.g.

"There are hundreds, perhaps thousands or millions, of valid guitar tones. When the air becomes electric, that's the right sound, no matter what the one is. It's that sound exciting the senses." (Alexander Dumble)

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

Shad, every spring reverb I ever played - including all those in the Dumble amplifiers with reverb I ever played - is IMO such a poor emulation of ambiences you find in the real world (be it a "natural" one like the Grand Canyon or an artificial one like Covent Garden), that IMO it doesn't make much sense to discuss wich one of all these spring reverb circuits delivers a more realistic emulation of the Grand Canyon or Covent Garden or whatever else real ambiences. Just my personal opini

This is actually pretty funny..Growing up as a kid we had this storm drain creek that ran through my back yard..Of coarse we played there so this creek had a rather large concrete tunnel that ran under one of the roads about 100 yards you could actually stand up and run through it, we of coarse would get at one end and yell at each other..The first time I heard spring reverb in a Fender amp had that exact same long hollow glassy sounding reverb we got in the sewer..Sewerverb..
I never thought there was anything natural sounding about spring reverb unless you played alot in the sewer..

Tony

[ER]

Sewerverb, love it! That's actually a more natural sound than you might think! My favorite natural reverb is (real) surf-verb, getting barreled in a good tube, you get this weird flangey wet roar that pitches up as the wave closes in. Wet, spashy, surf music, all very apt and natural terms. I haven't found a reverb yet that can recreate a true "green room" sound, though fender style spring reverb is the closest.

I've never heard this sound recreated, I think microphones don't like salt water.

Anybody want to start a separate thread on optimizing a reverb-o-lator? I'm planning on building Gary's loop-o-lator with a long tank 2-spring Hammond/Gibbs, but can't speak from experience yet. Seems like spring-in-ODS-loop might be the best way to go based on the discussions here, and a better option than building a whole new amp. Also I think 26" is too wide for a 1-12 combo; I'm in the middle of a 27" chassis build and considering a 2x12 with that ("twin built right" 100w and 2 EV's, no one's running off with that boat anchor!).

"What kind of amplification have you been using ?

I'm using a custom-made Howard Dumble amp which is the best one that I've ever played through - it's like a Fender made right. If you want a screaming Twin sound but don't want it too loud, you can do it. That amp has an overdrive section, somewhat similar to that of the Music Man amp. With the reverb on a Fender you have only two choices: on or off. But this reverb has a send and return so you can vary the amount of each. the spring inside the Fender reverb unit is a joke, and when you send the same amount as the input of the guitar signal, you're asking for it - everyone sounds like the Ventures. The way around it is by having separate controls, which the Dumble amp has. It costs about the same as a new Marshall with four 10" speakers in the bayonet cabinet. I've always liked that Marshall cabinet sound because it really projects. And it still has some nice lows. the Dumble amp has a switch so you can activate the overdrive section during a solo without having to turn up the amp or guitar volume up. I like it a lot, it's the best amp I've ever played through."
-Lowell George GP interview August 1976

Here's an obscure vido reference to make the point Max-style;
http://fishingtube.org/video/fFY4ZFvwf7 ... -film.html


-ER

[mlp-mx6]

Tony - I concur. I used to play amps with a built-in reverb tank. But I've played on too many stages that are unstable. There's nothing quite like that reverb thunder clap at the wrong point in a song...

[talbany]

Tony - I concur. I used to play amps with a built-in reverb tank. But I've played on too many stages that are unstable. There's nothing quite like that reverb thunder clap at the wrong point in a song...

HA HA!!..Yeah I cant think of a more obnoxious sound than that thunder clap reverb

Dont want to de-rail too much but here is a good reverb story.. Back when I had my Old Deluxe, we were in the middle of a break outside having a smoke when my singer came out and said there was an issue with the PA..Walking in you could hear this high pitched whistle so I started going through the channels, however since the pitch was
at a unidirectional frequency it was hard to pin point exactly where it was coming from on such a small stage.. After 3 or 4 minutes of searching it was coming from my Deluxe and ended up being a faulty reverb tube..Everyone in the club applauded when I found it..How embarrassing that was

Tony

[grtamp]

Does anyone draft a complete schematic for this overdrive reverb?

by the photos I can't take exact wiring.....
loss some point in PS and reverb / mixer stage

[M Fowler]

Does anyone draft a complete schematic for this overdrive reverb?

Mark

[grtamp]

Thanks Mark, but I already have this scheme and I seems it doesn't correspond to the Photos!!, I mean if someone has redrawn it , so that you understand better!

[Aaron]

I've stared and stared at the pics and this is the best I can come up with.
I know something isn't right with reverb mix, I can't figure out where the 270k that is at the far left of the reverb board is connected

Can someone check this for errors.

Thanks,

Aaron

[ampdork]

Apparently you were not paying attention.
Why would you even want reverb to be post overdrive and effects loop?
Lowell George sounded good without all that fancy shit.
Why not just get a Wet reverb, put it out front and be done with it?
Wasn't that the consensus? That reverb sounds bets a far up the chain as you can get it? Never at the end. All the BS about time based effects is recording engineer mumbo jumbo... I blame the damn unions... ahem..
:O)

Anyway dig up the schematic Henry has posted many times. IIRC it is very similar and may help you sort out that reverb.

[ampdork]

Also if you shoot me an email I can send a couple of other pictures not posted here, maybe they would help too.

[dreric]

Aaron!

The schematic you posted says that it's page 1 of 2. Is there a second page?

Thanks

Eric

[sergio]

Hi the 15M res seems to me 1,2M , correct me if I'm wrong.

S.