102 Feedback City

[talbany]

Max
Personally I don't care for the word clone either
IMHO..You can construct an amp exactly the same way.. By this I mean using the same materials build techniques and still IMHO have that amp have a different sonic character and or timbre as you put it.. So IMHO if you are referring to the so called use of the term clone as being the same amp with the same components and same build techniques and the same exact sonic character or timbre this IMHO is just not possible..Put another way..I do not believe this is possible.. IMO there are just too many variables as well as someones differences surrounding there interpretation..Of coarse there is only 1 #102 and apologize if someone has some confusion over my 102 REPLICA!! or the original 102 Robben Ford Dumble amp..
This is also not to say that someone might actually prefer the Timber/sonic quality of there replica (or if they like to call it a clone fine by me) over the original # whatever

All Due Respect!!
Working on answering all the other questions..Get back soon!!

Tony

[Structo]

Man, are we getting literal at the Amp Garage?

I think we all know the true meaning of a "clone".
Due to the medical cloning going on we have all been heard about this.
It should mean an identical copy, in every aspect, down to the last molecule.

But here it is an accepted word that is used pretty loosely in regards to an amplifier that is copied from an original.
There aren't too many here that qualify for clone as in identical parts and identical tone.

Do we have to come up with a new word to describe a facsimile of an amp we like so we build a copy of it?

Can we say it is a #102 copy?

[M Fowler]

More like a derivative of.


Mark

[jelle]

Imho, it is an imitation or even Tony's interpretation of a specific dumble amp.

Clone would be much more involved and if taken literally, impossible, as there is no DNA in the original Dumble. Maybe there is if you would take into account Mr. Dumble's skin cells..... In which case only Mr. Dumble can clone his work.

[vibratoking]

I think we all call it a 102 or 124 or 183 or whatever else because the builder started with that particular schematic. The circuit topology is very close or exact, but there are normally differences in the implementation. The components are usually not the same for many reasons. It is nearly impossible to copy the lead dress exactly. Transformers, caps, resistors, layout etc...all slightly different than the original. Which is what HAD did anyway. The intent may be to build a 102 circuit for instance, the implementation is slightly different in actuality, but I would still call it a 102 clone. I think the word clone actually refers to a biological copy. This is not biology, so when applying the word to an amp we are really using the word clone as slang. In this sense, clone has a changed meaning from the biological definition. You really can't pin down the meaning of a slang term because it can evolve by definition. Don't sweat the small stuff

[jelle]

I was not sweating it at all, just having a little fun...

[andyhardy]

I would like to clone that feedback!

Cheers

[brentm]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clone

2. a person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style: All the fashion models seemed to be clones of one another.

Clone seems fair. There is sort of an inherent or implicit detraction of value when using the term clone. I saw a "clone" Les Paul a couple days back when I dropped my guitar off for a setup/fret level. I'm sure a pawn shop would pay Gibson prices for such a clone and be unable to distinguish it from a copy. The only tell-tale sign I saw was the Serial Number and the Made in USA stamp was filled in with silver on the headstock instead of just being painted the body color. Perhaps to highlight that it was trying really hard to be authentic.

Beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder, but none of the clones will likely ever command the dollar value that we've seen authentic Dumbles change hands for on the market. However, the value that the owner and/or builder of a clone may find it difficult to put a price on.... that is, how much would they accept to let go of their individual handcrafted masterpiece? I suspect in most cases this will be much higher than the sum of the parts..

[ecisthebest]

im not an english major, but i just want to say tony's dumble sounds quite amazing. you can market the technique whenever you figure out what causes that!

[RevD]

Perhaps 'Works a like' or 'Sounds a like'.... I suppose it depends on how literal you want to be with the word clone. As mentioned even parts from the same era using the same builder etc yield different results.. *shrug* Amps are about as different as people and even twin's have they're differences... (I'd be willing to test that out with a pair of Female Blonde Nordic twins, you know just to take one for the team and all that.. purely for science you understand (the wife wouldn't though))...

Regards,

Don

[lovetone]

Look who’s really bothered about it being called a clone, it’s a great sounding amp. Let’s call it a Talbany 102 and get back to understanding what makes it sound the way it does.

[87MJ]

To get sustain/feedback/bloom/whatever like in the video, seems to me that the guitar and strings have to be affected somehow, and it can't just be things going on inside the amp.

Maybe a crazy idea, but has anyone ever explored the idea that maybe the amp is generating some kind of high frequency oscillation in V1a and input circuit that works its way back to the pickup, and acts kind of like a Fernandes Sustainer or Ebow?

http://www.fernandesguitars.com/sustain ... ainer.html

Scroll down the page for the schematic of how that works.

[brentm]

To get sustain/feedback/bloom/whatever like in the video, seems to me that the guitar and strings have to be affected somehow, and it can't just be things going on inside the amp.

Maybe a crazy idea, but has anyone ever explored the idea that maybe the amp is generating some kind of high frequency oscillation in V1a and input circuit that works its way back to the pickup, and acts kind of like a Fernandes Sustainer or Ebow?

http://www.fernandesguitars.com/sustain ... ainer.html

Scroll down the page for the schematic of how that works.

Yeah, being a big Vai fan. I've seen him use the sustainer on his guitar for some rather interesting tone. Intro to Whispering a Prayer being a good example. http://youtu.be/8KUSkGeaUPU - he cuts the pick attack with his volume pedal.. amazing technique and one of my favorite songs by him. But the string feedback effect (where you stand in a certain spot with the gain up) is different than what you're hearing here.

I believe this 2nd and 3rd order harmonics are being produced inside the amplifier. I'm no expert, but I believe there is some cancellation in most amps that reduce this effect. But it can be exploited using the PI and I'm sure many other ways.

[LeftyStrat]

I remember in my youth, receiving the Johnson Smith catalogs. They had all these items that exclaimed "Authentic Replica!" like "WWI Captain's Pistol, Authentic Replica!"

Except of course, it was not to scale and was made out of plastic.

I've never worried too much about making an exact clone. I'm much more interested in what Brian Eno calls "Happy Accidents." I have amps that sound okay (they rarely last long before being cannibalized), and amps that are just magical.

The same is true of guitars. Even though I'm sure Fender tries hard at consistency, there are some Strats that are magical, others, not so much. I played a lefty Les Paul ages ago that I stupidly didn't buy and it haunts me to this day. The notes bloomed and the guitar felt alive, and without even having it plugged into an amp. I've played quite a few since then, but not one even close to that one.

That's part of the fun of amp building for me, is trying to understand what exactly makes an amp magical. Perhaps this is the genius of Dumble and Fischer, that they found those parameters to be able to consistently dial in the magic.

Anyway, Tony, that amps sounds amazing. I'd settle for a clone of that amp.

[talbany]

OK.. Cool got that out of the way back to the amp..

Tom
I would say the amp is at a comfortable living room volume.. My studio is fairly small and the amp is at a comfortable level just when it begins to feedback.. If I were using it at a gig it would be slightly louder..Depending on the room of coarse but for the most part..

The 820 cathode resistor in the PI is a non inductive type and IMO has nothing to do with the sustainability..

If you listen closely at the amp some notes just hang there without going into feedback..Playing the amp it feels as though the notes want to sustain longer and sometimes bloom and increase in volume before the feedback comes in.. IMO the feedback is a part of it but the sustainability is something else.. This is why it's leading me to the PI/Power amp section perhaps more so than just the preamp..If this makes any sense!!

The recording device is a Flip HD pocket video camera and am using the built in mic and not the mic (57) sitting in front of the amp..No other external speakers recording effects were added..

I was perhaps considering that the NOS components which do generate a smoother (less hair around the note) type tone could perhaps help promote the amps ability to sustain. for this reason I am inclined to believe these NOS parts do play a part in the amps ability to sustain like it does however I do not consider this to be the main reason and more inclined to believe there is some missing link perhaps something overlooked.. Like Gil mentions it will be a case of isolating pre and power amp using deductive reasoning and process of elimination and further testing to determine where this could be generated..

Things that has little to do with the sustainability

Filter Caps
Tubes
Speakers
LNFB V1
Snubbers
PI Trimmer settings
Direction of coupling caps were not tested on this one
Sustains/feedsback without PAB in OD
Does it on both clean (PAB) and OD
OD channel sustains/feeds back with either single coils or Humbuckers
Amp does not need a D-lator to sustain bloom feedback
Amp does not need to be played at loud volumes
Does not need Formica circuit boards..
Amp uses standard ODS voltages
Amp does not need FET to Sustain/Bloom
Amp does not need 100uf on the plates
The wire used in the Preamp is cloth covered wire so so much for needing Teflon for good tone
BTW.. one of the OPT secondary wires were even spliced..Could that be it.

You know I got you.

TM You The MAN!!..Thank You!!


Tony