My #102 Review

[Max]

Isn't that wire from the Relay Power transformer?

It was probably too short to reach the power switch so he extended it.

Here is a wider shot.

Tom, IMO you are right.

Concerning the picture martin manning posted I'll look again at some others taken from some other angles.

Thanks for helping me to better understand what martin manning was talking about in regard to this OT of #124.

A nice day for all here!

Max

[Max]

Regardless if HAD spliced some leads or not on the transformers that he used does not necessarily mean that some of the transformers weren't of "Used" or "Seasoned" condition.

Greg, of course you're right. Some transformers out of - until the early eighties - around 120 ODS amps, prove of course nothing in a statistical sense. That's why I though that it might perhaps be interesting for some members here, that AFAIK Alexander Dumble bought at least the vast majority of most of these Fender Transformers in brand new condition from a tech who helped him by ordering these brand new Fender replacement parts.

With this piece of info I didn't intend to disturb other speculations, as always btw.

All the best,

Max

[Structo]

Also, now that many of these amps that HAD built are indeed vintage or over 20 years old, the iron is seasoned now and may play a part in the overall tone.

Even if he bought them brand new off the shelf, they are well used now.

One would have to play a newly built Dumble ODS and compare it with a vintage one.

[Max]

Also, now that many of these amps that HAD built are indeed vintage or over 20 years old, the iron is seasoned now and may play a part in the overall tone.

Even if he bought them brand new off the shelf, they are well used now.

One would have to play a newly built Dumble ODS and compare it with a vintage one.

Tom, IMO you're completely right:

Even if it would be possible to build an exact clone of #102 with exactly all the same parts and exactly the same layout etc., this clone will IMO still sound different, because of the aging process of all the parts in the original #102. And because #102 is one of the ODS amps that have constantly been serviced by Alexander Dumble and updated or tweaked to stay in accord with the taste of their users, you'll find parts in #102 that now are in this amp for 30 years, some for 20 years, some for 10 years, and perhaps some that are there only since some few years.

So if someone should want an exact clone of the current tone of #102, I have strong doubts, that this could be achieved by exactly cloning the current circuit and layout of #102 - not with new current parts, and not with NOS parts produced 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, and not with seasoned parts, too, because two parts that have been in different amps for the last 20 or 30 years will of course have seasoned in a different way.

So IMO when building a clone of the current tone of such an old Dumble amp like #102 you'll have to change the circuit to some extent to compensate for these differences between the current condition of the parts in the original amp and the current condition of the parts you plan to use for the clone.

And as IMO you would have to change the circuit anyway to some extent in order to compensate for the different states of aging of parts etc., IMO you could just change the circuit in a way, that compensates for the different tonal characteristics of brand new current parts, too. After all ampbuilding isn't magic - at least not in my opinion - but electronic engineering. And IMO an electronic engineer will know what changes are needed in regard to a given circuit to compensate for different tonal characteristics of different parts.

This is of course just my personal opinion concerning this topic and so perhaps far away from what we call "the truth" - just as all personal opinions - because they are personal.

Cheers,

Max

[Smitty]

I've been running square, triangle and sine waves at full power over night on the bench to break in new amps and the improvement is remarkable the next morning. Even after everything has had a chance to cool down, there is still a difference.

I've been toying with getting a break in CD since the sweep function on my generator is on the fritz.

BTW, Tony, great thread. I built a 102/183 deal with 70s Bassman 100 iron and the sound is big, clear and smooth. 150uF input caps on the power supply so its a little stiff at lower volumes. Pulled two 6L6s and dropped B+ about 50 volts through 210 ohms worth of power resistors. That helps with the feel and really smooths things out in the upper register.

Thanks for your excellent layouts, brother!

[vibratoking]

I have a 102/183 build with 4 6L6 output section and precision power supply. It is a fine sounding amp, but does not have the blooming and/or controlled feedback characteristics that Tony has been mentioning and that I have heard in other clips. I want that controlled feedback thing that I keep hearing about. Especially with a strat.

I had 2 x 220uF F&Ts on B+ and reduced it to 2 x 100uF F&Ts to investigate the effect. The hiss did not noticeably increase, but the tone became harsher in the highs - not at all what I would like to hear. The sustain and tendency to feedback has not changed for the better. I am trying to change one thing at a time, so I will be experimenting with the other supply caps as well as the NFB circuit next to see the effects. I'll keep posting my results. I will probably start a new thread for that.

[talbany]

I just rembered check out the OPT on ODS number 70...I can't post the pic at this time. Perhaps someone can find it for me and post this..

Thanks
Tony

[erwin_ve]

I just rembered check out the OPT on ODS number 70...I can't post the pic at this time. Perhaps someone can find it for me and post this..

Thanks
Tony

[talbany]

Erwin
Thanks for digging those up for me.... I thought I remembers that one as being spliced.
I know HAD also used Peavey Iron on some of his builds . I wonder if those along with the Music Man stuff was new or seasoned as well ..I don't want to speculate..

Thanks.. Tony

[amplifiednation]

This thread is extremely interesting. The 102 I just built is with an early 70s Twin OT and it truly does sing. There is a very vintage feel to the amp that I attribute to the OT. I would fully agree that the seasoned iron does play a part in the tone.

Many of our threads indicate that HAD used what was in his 'parts drawer'...so why not use some old iron if you have it?

I have a feeling he used a combination of both used and new parts. When he was building these amps originally that iron wasn't technically 'seasoned' as it would be now, so I don't see the appeal.

Would a 70s Fender transformer have sounded that spectacular in the early 80s?

[Max]

...so why not use some old iron...

I have no idea why Alexander Dumble preferred to use brand new Fender replacement transformers and took the trouble to ask this tech to order these on his behalf. But AFAIK it was rather usual in the late seventies and early eighties - even in the then new "boutique amp business" (Boogie, Dumble, Jim Kelley etc.) - to use new parts.

Would a 70s Fender transformer have sounded that spectacular in the early 80s?

I played my silverface Twin with a 125A29A/022889 OT only in the seventies, so I can't say how this may have sounded in the early eigthies. But perhaps other members here still played a seventies Twin or Showman with a 125A29A/022889 OT in the early eighties and remember if these seventies Twins and Showmans sounded spectacular in the early eighties?

Have a great weekend!

Max

[talbany]

Here is another.. Spliced Music Man power 183

Max with all due respect and not saying I don't trust your word ...BUT!!If these transformers were new there should be no reason to have these spliced where they are.. BTW.. If you are going to splice the primary of an OPT wire double heat shrink these and try not to lay them on the chassis, tie and fly them like he did on #70.. Lots of current there searching for ground..



Tony

[talbany]

Would a 70s Fender transformer have sounded that spectacular in the early 80s?

Taylor..Here is my take FWIW.. The Twin/Showman Xformers in the Silverface era Fenders were well made transformers and would no doubt perform well in an ODS style amp.. Depending on if that particular Xformer sounded good or spectacular depends on several key factors..Like I mentioned to Dave..Did that particular Xformer sound abnormally better than others that came off the winder at that time..Was the amp properly maintained or was it being operated under stress for long periods of time.. I am not sure that even properly seasoned iron improves it's sonic character like magically converting a good sounding piece into a spectacular sounding one as you put it.. This IMO would be a subjective interpretation..You might prefer how seasoned iron feels to your hands and ears but I certainly would not consider that just because that particular piece of iron has been seasoned I automatically consider it spectacular.. The Bassman 100 in my 102 is a wonderful sounding piece but I would not consider it spectacular..BTW it's NOS and not seasoned

Tony

Hope This Helps!!

[Max]

...If these transformers were new there should be no reason...

..I don't want to speculate..

Tony, IMO everyone should feel free to change her or his mind when someone feels the need to do so.

So I respect of course that you like specualting about possible reasons for slices that you obviously detect on some pictures of some of the perhaps around 120 Dumble ODS amps with Fender transformers. My personal taste in regard to speculations like these is just a different one. But of course I respect that you like speculating. Personal tastes and approaches are different and I think that this is great. I like a world full of different colors.

Have a nice weekend and all the best,

Max

[talbany]

So I respect of course that you like specualting about possible reasons for slices that you obviously detect on some pictures of some of the perhaps around 120 Dumble ODS amps with Fender transformers.

Max
You look at it as speculating.. I look at it more like conventional wisdom..
One of the major drawbacks of using used iron is you are at the mercy of the lead lengths..Heat shrinking the primary of an OPT's leads is generally not a good practice but there I go speculating again...

Have a Great weekend!!

Tony