Santana Amp KIT? anyone?

[anthony8i]

Here's some old Boogies. Prune Music Boogie Princeton, one of the first 200. Boogie #7, I think Carlos used #8 for Abraxas. #1172 Mark I head, I have out the box for a new power cord.

#1178 gets the Santana tone.

Eric

that boogie is nice!! so can I get a kit from anywhere? to build something like it?? seems everybody talks about fenders and dumbles?? how can someone get a kit for early boogie mark 1?

[anthony8i]

I always thought the easiest trick to get there without going too far out of the way is the following:

Almost any loud amp. Add pedal or preamp distortion to incorporate a lot of gain. You need enough gain. When you have enough, you'll know it. Do not scoop the mids. Get a Les Paul or other dual humbucker solidbody, completely roll off the neck tone, leave the bridge tone full on, and use the neck pickup alone or both pickups together. He really isn't far from the singing 'woman' tone on many of his classics. The bridge pickup alone with the volume turned down some seems to work pretty well for his rhythm work, which is not so clean. Then it's a matter of style. Santana's style is not that hard to cop compared to a lot of other well-known guitarists. Lot's of Dorian without the 6th goes a long way.

This is what I got! Santana MD guitar 10top, Santana 25th guitar 10top, 1984 fender concert II modified by lee jackson, keely cry baby wah, ts08, luna drive, boss dd7 delay and keeley nova wah, 2x12 cab tone tubys red anicos, and rivera altenuator. what do you mean about scooping mids or rolling off, i never understood that?

[anthony8i]

Hi anthony8i,

I thought I was the only old-fashioned guy to love again that Santana's smooth and sustained overdriven tone. I see hopefully that I am not alone ! We're almost 2...

I play in the Santana tone style with a Gibson ES-335-TD from 1980 or a brand new chinese Hagstrom Viking. The amp I use is a Boogie MKIIA from 1979, on which I corrected all the bugs :

[img:480:640]http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/222157IMG8718.jpg[/img]
[img:480:640]http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/840562IMG8719.jpg[/img]
[img:600:800]http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/210916IMG8569.jpg[/img]

I bought it to have the kind-of-Santana lead sound and that MKIIA does it all. Listen to "dance sister dance / baïla mi hermana" : it's faithfully that sound that I have with my gear.

MKIIA are unfairly disregarded. The MKI is "Santana", period. Only the MKIIB seems to have a good recognition, and the hype-must-to-have is the MKIIC+, but not for me.

A (wealthy) friend has a MKI Rev Eq 60/100, a MKIIC+ simulclass and a brand new MKV. We spent many hours in A/B comparisons along with my amp, and the closer to the MKI was the MKIIA without the need to dial much the knobs to set it in quickly.

So I would buy a MKIIA (or B at least) and work on it to debug the factory misconceptions. It's worth the job, trust me, and it's probably simpler and cheaper than building a kit, IMHO...

A+!

nope your not the only one! I love his old school tone! some of my fav albums would have to be MOONFLOWER, and LOTUS! its a smooth but gritty tone with lots of sustain! thats all i want! it must be nice beeing wealthy! so your saying to get a MKIIA instead of a MK1? so how much tweaking did you to do to that amp? its beautiful by the way! I got a 84 fender concert II it was modified by lee jackson him self in 87! its nice but I want a boogie I guess? if I do find the that boogie amp; would you be able to help me with the tweaks? so your telling me to get a MKIIA because its cheaper than a MK1? thanks!

[vibratoking]

This is what I got! Santana MD guitar 10top, Santana 25th guitar 10top, 1984 fender concert II modified by lee jackson, keely cry baby wah, ts08, luna drive, boss dd7 delay and keeley nova wah, 2x12 cab tone tubys red anicos, and rivera altenuator. what do you mean about scooping mids or rolling off, i never understood that?

I have an 83 Concert II as well. That can be a good amp, although I don't know what the Lee Jackson mod is. Stock, that amp doesn't have the right type of gain to do a good Santana, but you should be able to get enough with the two OD pedals that you have. If the OD pedals don't do it, then get a decent fuzz. The stock speaker in that amp is a total piece of shit. It has the flabbiest low end of any speaker that I am aware of. If you haven't already, get a good speaker. It may be your problem.

Scooping mids means setting up the amp and/or any other eq in the siganl chain so that there is very little mid content. Don't do that. You need the mids.

When I say rolloff the tone, I mean turn it all the way to zero on the guitar. Not part way down - all the way down. The guitar has to have a decent cap value or the 'woman' tone will not happen. I would think your guitars should do this well. The magic happens when it is all the way off, there is enough gain, and enough volume. I am sure I could get a very good Santana tone with your rig. Europa should sound great with your setup and a good speaker.

[anthony8i]

This is what I got! Santana MD guitar 10top, Santana 25th guitar 10top, 1984 fender concert II modified by lee jackson, keely cry baby wah, ts08, luna drive, boss dd7 delay and keeley nova wah, 2x12 cab tone tubys red anicos, and rivera altenuator. what do you mean about scooping mids or rolling off, i never understood that?

I have an 83 Concert II as well. That can be a good amp, although I don't know what the Lee Jackson mod is. Stock, that amp doesn't have the right type of gain to do a good Santana, but you should be able to get enough with the two OD pedals that you have. If the OD pedals don't do it, then get a decent fuzz. The stock speaker in that amp is a total piece of shit. It has the flabbiest low end of any speaker that I am aware of. If you haven't already, get a good speaker. It may be your problem.

Scooping mids means setting up the amp and/or any other eq in the siganl chain so that there is very little mid content. Don't do that. You need the mids.

When I say rolloff the tone, I mean turn it all the way to zero on the guitar. Not part way down - all the way down. The guitar has to have a decent cap value or the 'woman' tone will not happen. I would think your guitars should do this well. The magic happens when it is all the way off, there is enough gain, and enough volume. I am sure I could get a very good Santana tone with your rig. Europa should sound great with your setup and a good speaker.

thanks for the clarification!! ok I get it now good mids and zero tone!! I have been using 7-8 on the tone! i'll mess with that. my concert is just the amp head; too heavy with all that junk; its just a head that gets plugged in my tone tubbys. yeah so i'll work on it thanks man! btw! i dont know much either on the jackson mod? I gotta research that? all I know is that he added a bias pot and took off one of the jack inputs the very first one and I just have the clean and bright channel! i have to do more research! thanks

[vibratoking]

One more hint about the Concert II. Put a jumper in the effects loop on the back and adjust the loop levels to taste. That is one of the secrets of that amp because it gives you another gain stage to play with.

Have fun.

[anthony8i]

One more hint about the Concert II. Put a jumper in the effects loop on the back and adjust the loop levels to taste. That is one of the secrets of that amp because it gives you another gain stage to play with.

Have fun.

so do i use a speaker or actual guitar cable? I would think guitar right? I got plenty Gorgel L's? thanks again!

[anthony8i]

Here's some old Boogies. Prune Music Boogie Princeton, one of the first 200. Boogie #7, I think Carlos used #8 for Abraxas. #1172 Mark I head, I have out the box for a new power cord.

#1178 gets the Santana tone.

Eric

Eric,
I seen a combo mesa boogie mark 1 snake skin on ebay for $750; how can you tell if its the real thing? the reason i ask is because the power light is blue, it reads mark1 and it has the tweed option switch in front? is this right? thanks

[Structo]

Anthony,

Do you mind my asking you how old you are?

If you want to get into working on tube amps you need to gain some knowledge about electronics.

I suggest maybe getting a pedal kit from BYOC or someplace to get some soldering experience and some component familiarity.

Tube amps have very high voltage on the tubes and you can injure or kill yourself if you are not careful.

Take some baby steps before diving in.

Most the guys here have been messing around with this stuff for years.

There are a few places that sell amp kits but I don't think you will find a Boogie kit or anything that close to it without some severe modifications.

There are only a couple people that sell amp kits with instructions, Allen being one of them.

It's best to start with a simple kit because if you don't know anything, you will be overwhelmed when you get a kit with no instructions, just the parts.

Like just about everybody here, you can get real close with a good amp (your Fender) and some decent pedals.

With Carlos Santana, it is more his style and the way he phrases his music than just the guitar and amp.
It's in the hands as they say.
Sure he sets it up to have a lot of sustain but that is just gaining up the preamp which you can do with pedals.

Good luck on your adventure.

[selloutrr]

One more hint about the Concert II. Put a jumper in the effects loop on the back and adjust the loop levels to taste. That is one of the secrets of that amp because it gives you another gain stage to play with.

Have fun.

so do i use a speaker or actual guitar cable? I would think guitar right? I got plenty Gorgel L's? thanks again!

guitar cable.

[anthony8i]

Anthony,

Do you mind my asking you how old you are?

If you want to get into working on tube amps you need to gain some knowledge about electronics.

I suggest maybe getting a pedal kit from BYOC or someplace to get some soldering experience and some component familiarity.

Tube amps have very high voltage on the tubes and you can injure or kill yourself if you are not careful.

Take some baby steps before diving in.

Most the guys here have been messing around with this stuff for years.

There are a few places that sell amp kits but I don't think you will find a Boogie kit or anything that close to it without some severe modifications.

There are only a couple people that sell amp kits with instructions, Allen being one of them.

It's best to start with a simple kit because if you don't know anything, you will be overwhelmed when you get a kit with no instructions, just the parts.

Like just about everybody here, you can get real close with a good amp (your Fender) and some decent pedals.

With Carlos Santana, it is more his style and the way he phrases his music than just the guitar and amp.
It's in the hands as they say.
Sure he sets it up to have a lot of sustain but that is just gaining up the preamp which you can do with pedals.

Good luck on your adventure.

thanks appreciate your concern! i'm 28, i'm actually in school for renewable energy to work on electronics, such as wind turbines and airplane cams; right now we are learning about the amplifier circuits so I though i could build a amp head from online kits? to get a santana tone amp?? I though they all came with schematics and some what instructions? i was checking the weber kits and torres engineering sites? it seems easy I guess?? i could be very wrong? do you know any good info sites or books to get into? thanks!

[John_P_WI]

i was checking the weber kits and torres engineering sites?

A little bit of seasoned advice, stay away from Torres. You will learn more about your Santana goal here.

[M Fowler]

stay away from Torres.

I agree 100%

[tubelectron]

anthony8i,

What says Structo is absolutely true : a wise advice you must consider really if you never worked on tube circuits, even if you seem very confident in you skills (you must !)...

If you want to have an idea and the guidelines about the job I have done on my MKIIA Boogie, please go to that link/thread below : you'll find a description résumé in page 4.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=30

I don't want to be dogmatic nor boasting at all, but I am 47 and I built and service tube amps for 30 years. I have all the requested measuring equipment, etc... I just want to mean that working on a tube amp is not improvisation if you want it to work properly, as you expected, and not only be "self-satisfied by your more or less rough assembly".

That mean relying on my help to debug your Boogie is taking risks for you, nonobstant if I do my best to help you at distance. I could use my 30-year knowledge to sort out surprises and problems, but you understand easily that it is not "instant transferable via the web".

Please read all the 5 pages of the mentioned above topic, and for sure, you will undertstand what I mean.

Having said that...

some of my fav albums would have to be MOONFLOWER, and LOTUS! its a smooth but gritty tone with lots of sustain!

For sure the MKI and the MKIIA are the best choice to do that ! The IIB too, but less for the later MKIIC and MKIII, more aggressive and designed differently.

so your saying to get a MKIIA instead of a MK1?

The advantage of the MKIIA over the MKI is that it has dual channel plus booster operation : you can dial a great deep clean tone and jump into Santana tone lead, and even activate the booster to boost the sustain, not the aggressivity (pure magic, trust me). This artefact makes the MKIIA more "controllable" over the MKI, but that's all !

so how much tweaking did you to do to that amp? its beautiful by the way!

You'll find the guidelines in the thread I spoke about above - it will show you the scope of the job.

if I do find the that boogie amp; would you be able to help me with the tweaks?

Distant assistance can help, of course, but it has its limitations, particularly with "non-specialists". See if you understand all that I wrote in my thread, at first... It would be a good starting point !

so your telling me to get a MKIIA because its cheaper than a MK1?

If you find a MKI at affordable price, well go on, yes ! for you - beginner in tube circuits - it is a bit simpler than the MKIIA due to its "single channel" operation. I would say that sometimes you find MKI and IIA in the same ballpark, but usually the MKI brings more because it is Santana-related.

Nonetheless, MKI and MKIIA really have the Santana tone - If it's what you are searching, like I was - you won't be disappointed, trust me...

For the end, some of my self designed and built amps below in the mid '90s :

[img:640:480]http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/548542IMG_0006.jpg[/img]
[img:640:480]http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/21327IMG_0005.jpg[/img]
[img:640:480]http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/960505IMG_3148.jpg[/img]
[img:640:480]http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/93057IMG_3993.jpg[/img]

A+!

[dreric]

Early Boogies aren't really complex amps. Yet, nobody makes a kit. First, I think you can buy an old one for cheaper than you can make one. Second, Randal Smith is pretty handy with the patents and I believe that he defends his work etc.

Eric