Carmen Ghia schematic/layout?

[Tdale]

(longtime lurker, great forum!)

You can buy a KArmin Ghia for $1000
It hardly seems worth the effort to make one..

You're right about that. A clone would probably end up not too far away from the cost of the real thing. But I love building amps. I enjoy myself enormously when I solder, buy parts, mount etc. so cost isn't always that important.

Tommy

[groovtubin]

(longtime lurker, great forum!)

You can buy a KArmin Ghia for $1000
It hardly seems worth the effort to make one.
But since the power section is from a Hammond and is very unusual and the person making one for themselves is probbaly never going to sell it but use it for their own enjoyment I dont see the harm in it. It is all in the idea of furthering ones knowledge in the quest for great tone. I think the schematics should not be posted but available as request. Besides half the schematics floating around of amps are wrong anyway.

man, you hit nail on head!!

[tjauernig]

The problem is not ripping off the designs, it's taking the credit for the design. I've met Z, and he has never claimed the Ghia was anything other than a Hammond circuit. Truth be told, get your hands on some of the old RCA/Sylvania tube manuals...................ALL the classic circuits come from there! They gave them to the world because they were trying to sell tubes back when tubes were the technology. "Hammond", now owned by Suzuki, doesn't make the AO-35 anymore. But, Z makes the Ghia, which is close, but not a verbatim copy like so many think it is.

Point is, don't knock the guy, or anybody else for "borrowing", or whatever you want to call it. Not to say something new can't be done, but has anybody really seen anything new in the last , to be conservative 5-10 years in tube amps? But, a tweak here or there, can make a big tonal dofference, but means nothing to the basic design.

How many TS copies/clones are there? Including mine, I stoppped counting at around 800 that can be found at the click of a mouse. There's only so many ways to make a dual op amp a OD pedal, and only so many ways to make a tube an amp. JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING IS A CLONE OF SOMETHING. Not everything, but almost. Look at Fender, a handful of preamp/power amp designs, and literally hundreds of combinations of them that have been marketed over the years. And, you can find them all in the old RCA/Sylvania manuals.

So don't knock a guy for trying to eat.............and feed a few others in the process by creating jobs. All the "buzz" boutique amps out there are refined versions of what's been done before. AND, there's nothing wrong with that! Hell, some are "dead nuts" clones, and the builders don't hide the fact, and that's cool. What's not cool is when guys build a Bassman, and claim "here's (MY) amp".

I'm not trying to knock anybody here, or anything, but give these amp builders a break. Most of them are not getting rich by any means. This business is extremely tough to make it in. Fender hasn't built much of anything of quality in a while, so it's great to see the Dr. Z's, Fuchs, Victoria, Bogners, Savage, and on and on picking up the slack.

Hey, it's been going on since the onset of rock.........What's a Marshall?

Build on fellow forumites.........Thanks for the ongoing great discussions.

[groovtubin]

The problem is not ripping off the designs, it's taking the credit for the design. I've met Z, and he has never claimed the Ghia was anything other than a Hammond circuit. Truth be told, get your hands on some of the old RCA/Sylvania tube manuals...................ALL the classic circuits come from there! They gave them to the world because they were trying to sell tubes back when tubes were the technology. "Hammond", now owned by Suzuki, doesn't make the AO-35 anymore. But, Z makes the Ghia, which is close, but not a verbatim copy like so many think it is.

Point is, don't knock the guy, or anybody else for "borrowing", or whatever you want to call it. Not to say something new can't be done, but has anybody really seen anything new in the last , to be conservative 5-10 years in tube amps? But, a tweak here or there, can make a big tonal dofference, but means nothing to the basic design.

How many TS copies/clones are there? Including mine, I stoppped counting at around 800 that can be found at the click of a mouse. There's only so many ways to make a dual op amp a OD pedal, and only so many ways to make a tube an amp. JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING IS A CLONE OF SOMETHING. Not everything, but almost. Look at Fender, a handful of preamp/power amp designs, and literally hundreds of combinations of them that have been marketed over the years. And, you can find them all in the old RCA/Sylvania manuals.

So don't knock a guy for trying to eat.............and feed a few others in the process by creating jobs. All the "buzz" boutique amps out there are refined versions of what's been done before. AND, there's nothing wrong with that! Hell, some are "dead nuts" clones, and the builders don't hide the fact, and that's cool. What's not cool is when guys build a Bassman, and claim "here's (MY) amp".

I'm not trying to knock anybody here, or anything, but give these amp builders a break. Most of them are not getting rich by any means. This business is extremely tough to make it in. Fender hasn't built much of anything of quality in a while, so it's great to see the Dr. Z's, Fuchs, Victoria, Bogners, Savage, and on and on picking up the slack.

Hey, it's been going on since the onset of rock.........What's a Marshall?

Build on fellow forumites.........Thanks for the ongoing great discussions.

Man, i totally agree w/this. BUT you WILL see something new and very soon, have a friend in Cally that has TRULY nailed robbens sound, i mean IT IS IT! It`ll be NEW as in NO one has TOTALLY captured that magic until now... save HAD... But.. price tag will be astronomical, me, yes i`ve built for the stars. and amatures alike, and have something NEW to speak of, and hopefully, i`ll get ta employ some folks in what i call POVERTY town, building the most bodacious amp i`ve ever heard, and yes, same technology as the BIG guys w/a COOL twist, it`s ALL here for us ta grab, thank GOD for those western electric cats!! Now all it takes is LONG hours, and HARD work!!

[tjauernig]

Groovtubin

Every once and a while somebody gets something new happening. Congrats.

I met Robben Ford last year in Milwaukee while he was traveling with John Mayall. ( Very gracious guy by the way) That night he played a Les Paul, through a BF Super Reverb. He had that same ultra thick singing tone he gets with the Dumble. I asked him if the amp had been modified. He said "nope, not a thing" He said the only work that had been done over the years was the ocassional cap job, and a few blown speakers here and there. I gave him one of my boost pedals, and an OD to check out after the show. He plugged them into a Champ backstage in the dressing room, and low and behold, he had his sound in 2 seconds.

I witnesed a similar demonstration a few years ago with Eric Johnson. It's the hands. However, most any gear sounds great in the hands of the greats, the rest of us need the tools made by people like you and your friend. I'd be interested in hearing what you've got there. When it's available to the world, drop me a line.

Until later..............great tone sometimes comes and goes like a thief in the night.

[groovtubin]

Groovtubin

Every once and a while somebody gets something new happening. Congrats.

I met Robben Ford last year in Milwaukee while he was traveling with John Mayall. ( Very gracious guy by the way) That night he played a Les Paul, through a BF Super Reverb. He had that same ultra thick singing tone he gets with the Dumble. I asked him if the amp had been modified. He said "nope, not a thing" He said the only work that had been done over the years was the ocassional cap job, and a few blown speakers here and there. I gave him one of my boost pedals, and an OD to check out after the show. He plugged them into a Champ backstage in the dressing room, and low and behold, he had his sound in 2 seconds.

I witnesed a similar demonstration a few years ago with Eric Johnson. It's the hands. However, most any gear sounds great in the hands of the greats, the rest of us need the tools made by people like you and your friend. I'd be interested in hearing what you've got there. When it's available to the world, drop me a line.

Until later..............great tone sometimes comes and goes like a thief in the night.

I hear ya!! I sound the same thru all of it as well, but the coolest thing is to have running water sustain at a low volume w/BIG butt notes, it just makes my job as a musician/tech so much better! lol!! My friend in cally is a NON tech, but great ears, we`ve traded TRADE secrets for a while. This got him to explore the crazy possibilities in sound. He`s an ABSOLUTE CRAZY Ford fan, can NAIL alot of tunes, has KILLER technique kid ya not, when he comes out with this amp, alot of people WILL be shakin head in disbelief, it`s THAT good!! Andy( F) knows him, but i won`t disclose his name. I`m lookin fwd to seeing him get it out there!! RF is a VERY cool guy, he reminds me of the time i met Steve Vai, man, he`s RIGHT!! NO attitude, genuine and friendly from the heart.. Take care!! jp

[stevlech]

Not to stir up flames here, but something in the previous posts confuses me. If guys like Z openly admit that they tweaked an existing design, why are they protective of the circuitry? If one believes that it is ok to utilize a circuit that was invented some time ago and is in public domain, why would they take actions against those who wish to copy the circuit when in fact that is what they did themselves? Again, I don't mean to cause trouble, I just don't get it...

My $.02

[drz400]

Not to stir up flames here, but something in the previous posts confuses me. If guys like Z openly admit that they tweaked an existing design, why are they protective of the circuitry? If one believes that it is ok to utilize a circuit that was invented some time ago and is in public domain, why would they take actions against those who wish to copy the circuit when in fact that is what they did themselves? Again, I don't mean to cause trouble, I just don't get it...

My $.02

HE is NOT overly protective
Only the power section is Hammond, The Dived B 13 I've seen were a gibson circuit, the Boogie Rectumfrier lead channel is an SLO100, the Peavey 5150 is an SLO100 with a twist.
If DRZ were overly protective he would goop his circuit like some other knuckleheads out there.
In fact I think his answer is to offer reasonable quality at a resonable price.
I think the Dumble mentality is all wrong, produce a good product for the correct profit and people wont be trying to rip you off. Start jacking up the price, gooping shit making totally unserviceable and you have a bag of junk IMO.
The only amps I have seen that were of exceptional build quality actually did nothing for me, like the Komet stuff, sorry I dont get it, $3800 is really pushing it for what is in there, but they sure are made nice even if them hum too much.
These guys talking about the ultimate RF amp, come on! Make a nice amp and sell it but nobody is going to sound like RF unless they can play like him and there are not too many guys out there like that, everytime I've seen him except one he wasnt using a Bumble. There is absoltely nothing new in tube overdrive design, it has ALL been done before, show me one circuit that is truly original, aint going to happen due to the nature of the operation of tubes. Kind of like someone talking about the VHT depth control, the exact values date back to my Radiotron designers handbook. One guy I do truly respect is Aiken, makes a great product an knows his shit, cool that he hangs out here as well. As long as the designs are not used for profit I dont think many of the builders have a problem with sharing but it really boils down to them staying reasonable with their prices, offer lifetime warantee, great customer service and making quality aamps as to their success. Dumble could have been much more successful financially if he had not been so paranoid and focus on better production

[rfgordon]

Let me first say apologize for violating protocol by posting the shematics. My bad. And I certainly didn't mean to dis Mike Zaite. He, like a lot of guys in the amp biz, started out building for players and helping them get the "sound in their head." I've got a harp player borrowing one of my prototypes now, and we'll go down that road together.

I certainly wouldn't rip off somebody's design and sell it as my own. I would, however, put my twist on it, like, say, a Carmen Ghia with a pair of 6V6s or something. Combine things and come up with a new voice.

I think a lot of people forget how much can be done with basic circuits. Take the tried-and-true gain stage-->cathode follower-->tone stack-->PI-->output tubes. That can be morphed into almost anything from spanking clean to seriously angry. It just depends on what you put where and what the values are. Seems to me the real visionaries are the ones who tweak a couple of details and make it special. I doubt anyone in this forum is out to get over on anyone else.

While it is true that Joe Local can buy any number of ordinary to extraordinary amps these days on his tonequest, those companies can't do what we offer to our local guys: A voicing session with a handful of jumper wires and components. Nobody at the Booga Booga Amp Corporation is gonna tell a player, "Try this for a few gigs, and if you don't like it, I'll put in the other transormer and see what you like better."

I think that the more ideas we share the more that gets filtered into what we truly have to offer our own local pickers, wherever we are. If those ideas have to be shared on the DL, so be it, but it's still kinda sad that it has to be this way.

[stevlech]

+1

[Allynmey]

The above few posts are very confusing to me. Let's start by giving proper due to Dr. Z, HAD, and KF and everyone else who's interpetations of existing circuits are loved by many. I have been for the better part of two years on this forum and others trying to understand the psychology of people who take public domain ideas, market them and then turn around and claim foul when others are curious about them or change one or two parts and market the circuit themselves. I find it hard to comprehend the mindset. When home amp builders copy a circuit that itself was copied, boutique builders inevitably come back with "your stealing food from their employees mouths". It seems like they adopt a "I stole it first" mentality.

Schematics pop up on forums and members build their versions of those amps all the time. This is an ampbuilding forum. It's why we are here. Otherwise, we could all hang out at the Gear Page worshipping the top guru of the amp world like serfs.

I don't begrudge anyone making as much as they can from ideas that are public domain. I just have a problem when that same person has a problem with me or anyone else doing the same or just building for themself.

People who believe that these circuits are the property of these builders who look down at builders as thieves, maybe you should do a patent or copyright search on those circuits. you'll give up after a while and realize how silly the whole argument is.

My opinion only!


Allynmey

[rhinson]

hello, from the dr z website:

"Don't let the low price fool you, this hand built amp contains some of the most original designs ever used in a guitar amp. From it's unique single tone control, which makes finding the sweet spot for any guitar a snap, to its Conjuctive Filter and fixed DC biased phase inverter, you won't see many of these features in other amps. "

true he doesn't say that "some of the most original designs" are his original designs, but if it's on your website promoting your amp i certainly think it's implied and so would the prospective buyer of the amp. as i posted before, the power amp is directly lifted from the ao-35 and preamp is simply 2 gain stages with the matchless mid control implimented like the selmer zodiac 30 tone control (from which matchless lifted it). the stangray uses this tone control as well with different values closer to the original selmer values. as many professional and amateur builders have found out (not just z), it pays to look at old schematics every now and then.

[drz400]

true he doesn't say that "some of the most original designs" are his original designs, but if it's on your website promoting your amp i certainly think it's implied and so would the prospective buyer of the amp. as i posted before, the power amp is directly lifted from the ao-35

Is the ao-35 a Hammond reverb? that is where I saw it so then it would be original for a guitar amp

I say build anything you want for yourself, this is an amp builders forum and any production amp builder would have a problem with his stuff being posted but there isnt really a bloody thing they can do about it.

The only thing is that it is harder for a smaller builder to compete with larger companies, he can only do it in quality, so it would never be a nice thing to copy it and put it out on the market. I think all these small boutique companies are great and they have to realize that if we are the type of people finding time to build clones we are not their customers anyway. We should be able to share schematics without pissing off builders. My only worry is if I were a builder and if I shared something of mine that someone would not do a great job of making the copy and then get an unfavorable review. Or more than likely the schematic had mistakes and my circuit was judged by the clone. There are so many issues besides the circuit design, transformers, layout, voltages, tubes etc that all contribute greatly to the tone and often get overlooked

[UR12]

I usually stay out of these ethical discussions as everyone has to make up their own mind regarding what they build for themselves. I do find it interesting that DrZ would use the name Carman Ghia as this is very very close to to the registered trademark "Karmann Ghia" used by VW. A few years ago VW started going around looking for people using their logos. There were many companies that were sent cease and decist orders and some sued in court and fined. VWoA made a local VW shop change it's name and pay a fine for displaying the sign for his business (Don's VW Repair).

Since VW is now making cars with a built in guitar amp doesn't that mean VW and DrZ are in a strange way competitors.

Check this out

http://www.chillingeffects.org/trademar ... iceID=3370

[stevlech]

Allynmey, I couldn't agree with you more. That is exactly how I feel about the subject. Thank you.