Fragile Harmonics - Not so crazy after all? =D

[talbany]

Back in the early 90's I had a sound company and did a ton of Wedding/Hotel gigs in DC mixing all types of bands..The modeling amps had just appeared and the guy's doing those types of gig's really liked them..They were light and you could fill them with a ton of sounds and at whisper volumes no big pedal boards and when mic'd got the job done,especially the ones who knew how to program them right didn't sound half bad (for a wedding) from the board..(As long as you keep the power amp out of clipping)
Still not a tube amp!!

Tony

Hi Tony,

do you know this comment or even recommendation of one of the most experienced Dumble players and studio cats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjSX5UvVGzI

If you watch this vid you should see more links on the right side of your screen to Carlos Rios' comments on some recording stuff if you should be interested. I'm a big fan of him as the great and versatile player he is and of his straightforward, practical and unmystical view on gear and especially of his always gentle and decent attitude despite the name he has in guitar players circles.

AFAIR he used such an amp for this tour as an example that is documented on a DVD that has been posted in several parts at YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTjU4PWQNWs

Here he's on stage with Stevie Nicks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emIb8sXQI-c

All the best and have a great week,

Max

Max
Yes I remember you posting the Carlos in the Studio clip before.Thanks!. Interesting stuff and yes even I have used the POD on some session stuff..(NOT responsible for the mix..)

Stay Well!

Tony

[renshen1957]

Back in the early 90's I had a sound company and did a ton of Wedding/Hotel gigs in DC mixing all types of bands..The modeling amps had just appeared and the guy's doing those types of gig's really liked them..They were light and you could fill them with a ton of sounds and at whisper volumes no big pedal boards and when mic'd got the job done,especially the ones who knew how to program them right didn't sound half bad (for a wedding) from the board..(As long as you keep the power amp out of clipping)
Still not a tube amp!!

Tony

Hi Tony,

I agree with you. It's still a case of close, but no cigar (and margarine still doesn't taste like butter after 142 years). Digital still doesn't sound like the real thing.

Quite a few younger musicians use line 6 amps. Fine for low level recording into their computer, for gigs in small venues, and for cover bands which require a large palette of sounds for a variety of numbers.
However, whats the point of having 31 flavors when they're just different shades of gray. How many major bands that exclusively use Digital modeling Amps?

Guitar companies are still trying and failing to sell their version of Tube simulation amps (whichever method used) and all the marketing and adverstisement isn't deceiving anyone's ears.

Digital has a long, long way to go before it can reproduce all the dynamics of a tube amp. There will have to be a breakthrough in processor speed, and especially memory, ect. and a paradigm shift to rethink all the parameters of pick attack, velocity, decay, compression, harmonics, sustain or sag and to clone all of tonal variances tubes exhibit.

I made the acquaintance of a former Line 6 "artist" (endorsee) who still uses their digital effects board, it was all for free. He was given a Line 6 amp. He tours his vintage Fenders.

Transistor amps and Digital amps (include Digital effects) are often sited as being more reliable than Tube amps. To the contrary when any of these break down outside of warranty, it's landfill time, cheaper to buy a new unit than to pay to repair them.

I would liken Tube amps to automobles, you perform maintenance repairs, replace the tires when they wear out, ect.

As an invited guest at touring bands rehearsal, their lead guitarist's Line 6 digital pedal board gave up the ghost when a low voltage zener diode in the power supply went up in smoke. His attitude was, "oh great, $199 bucks is going to the landfill.

His rig (tube amp) actually sounded better without the pedal, even the drummer commented on the improvement in the tone.

Solid State has its place (all those later studio recordings of the Beatles have English Vox SS amps) as a different flavor. Short of a primitive SE class A power amp that doesn't take advantage of semi-conductor gain (which would be expensive to make), transistors have too many artifacts to sound exactly like a tube amp.

Best Regards

Steve

[Bob-I]

His rig (tube amp) actually sounded better without the pedal, even the drummer commented on the improvement in the tone.

Yea, I think I insulted another guitarist enough that the band doesn't call me for gigs anymore when I told him that his Line6 pedal board hurt the sound of his Marshall.

These modelers have a place, and it's not in front of a tube amp.

[talbany]

Steve
Hey.. FYI several of Nashville's top grossing acts I've worked with have made the attempt to go w/modelers live to clean up the stage and try to make it easier on the road crew and sound guy's for better isolation.. Of coarse this was met by strong opposition by the players themselves and shortly thereafter went back to tube stuff..And still to this day walk into any studio in Nashville and find most of them still use their fav tube amp.. Especially on the master sessions just about always a tube amp..Perhaps some day the transition into the modelers will take place but so far I don't see any real sighs of this happening very soon there!!

BTW..When I handed over the solo( I posted above) to the producer he said he liked the tone I got and asked what amp did I use..He had pretty good ears too!!..

Take Care!!

Tony

[Max]

Hi all,

I am not that sure if what we today know as the typical sound of an electric guitar solo isn't just an (happy?) accident:

Just image, if at the point in history when the development of popular music in the USA had come to the point when Charlie Christian and others felt the motivation to step out and play a guitar solo in their big bands the transistor would have been already "invented" and used for amplification.

Then perhaps or even most probably the first commercial electric guitar amps would have been SS amps from the start.

As you all know, the "historical gap" between the introduction of SS audio amplifiers for general use and the "invention" and commercialization of electric guitars in general - and especially these late 60ies "overdrive" sounds of guys like Clapton, Page and Hendrix - are only some years.

So just image that Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton and all these guys in England would have never played a Marshall amp as we know it, because what Jim Marshall would have cloned would already have been a transistor driven Fender Bassman.

Then the trumpets of the British Invasion troops perhaps would have sounded a bit different and the members here now would perhaps be members here:

http://www.ssguitar.com/

And perhaps they would even then now have the same amount of fun when listening to and creating exiting music and building whatever they would now call "great sounding" amps - probably with different sounds, but perhaps just as much liked as those that are now the most popular ones.

Have Fun!

Max

[daydreamer]

Regardless of the sound, lets face it, there is no single definition of good tone, (I mean Buddy Guy's 1970 ice pick tone on a 335 remains a fav for me), it's still all about the performance.
If the connection with the equipment is in anyway stilted, like Tom pointed out, then the tone becomes irrelevant, the performance will most likely suck. And if the playing sucks, it all sucks.

Though I have to say, it is enlightening to read that paper, not that i understand much of it, but that that one quality, 'soft clipping' is a property of the circuit gives me an insight beyond 'it's tube, it's good'!!!

[martin manning]

Interesting thought, Max. Yes, only about 20 years or so between the emergence of the electric guitar (ca. 1940) and the introduction of solid-state consumer electronics (ca. 1960). But vacuum tube technology persisted into the 1970's, so the overlap is more than 30 years, and some of the early equipment has survived to this day. I submit that there would have been ample opportunity to rediscover and exploit the tonal quality of vacuum tubes had the initial bloom been in solid-state.

[Max]

Interesting thought, Max. Yes, only about 20 years or so between the emergence of the electric guitar (ca. 1940) and the introduction of solid-state consumer electronics (ca. 1960). But vacuum tube technology persisted into the 1970's, so the overlap is more than 30 years, and some of the early equipment has survived to this day. I submit that there would have been ample opportunity to rediscover and exploit the tonal quality of vacuum tubes had the initial bloom been in solid-state.

Martin, you are right of course. Perhaps transistor amps would have reigned for only 20 years until some Eddie van Halen would have found this old tube radio from the 30ies at some fleet market.

But if you take a close look:

AFAIK tubes have at first been used for a larger quantity of consumer home entertainment electronics (radios) in the 20ies. So if the transistor would have been "invented" and used for consumer electronics only some 20 to 30 years earlier, tube driven consumer electronics that later could have been rediscovered by Eddie van Halen would perhaps never been produced. Strange thought.

Cheers,

Max

[vibratoking]

Max, I agree with what you are saying regarding sound perception, but there are alot of what ifs. What if the transistor and the vacuum tube had not been invented? We could theorize forever on potential scenarios. What we have is what we have. As someone said, "If the queen had balls, she'd be the king". And vacuum tubes are king for now.

[greiswig]

Ouch, Max. That's a scary thought: tubes never invented. On the other hand, if the transistor had been given as much attention over the subsequent years as the tube, who knows what evolutionary leaps it might have made?

I heard a song on the radio with great tone and a great solo by a guy named Lincoln Brewster. So I did a little digging into what he was playing through: Strat into a Line 6. He did note that he was a studio tech, and that he'd had to spend a lot of time tweaking the Line 6.

[Structo]

I remember in Electronic Engineering class in 1977 the instructor telling us that we wouldn't be spending much time at all on tube theory.
On the off chance that we get something across our bench in the future he would touch on a few points.
He said quite frankly the transistor can do the same job only cheaper and cooler and last forever.
I think we discussed tubes for three days.

There was a period of time that all I had was an old Ampeg solid state amp that reportedly put out 100 watts.
It was a clean amp and I would use a distortion pedal like a Boss OD-1 to goose it. But it kept blowing power transistors so finally I gave up on it.
Then I got a Peavey Century head, another SS amp that actually sounded pretty good.

It wasn't until around 2000 that I bought my first tube amp in years, a Carvin Belair combo.
The first chord I played through that amp was an eye opener.
There it was, that glorious tube sound!

Tubes have a warm, organic sound to them that is pleasing to the ear.
Sure they get hot, wear out, and can cause grief when they are not working properly.
But, when all the magic light bulbs transmit their electrons through space, it is a wonder to behold.

[talbany]

Here is a BIG Problem!!
If you wanted to take this a step further and perhaps ask yourself this?
TALKING SS AMPS HERE AND NOW!
In the world of Boutique..
Here we are in 2011 and still cutting and punching eyelet/turret boards here..
Why is a good portion of the general public still hung up on using PCB..
Could it be a fashion statement..
IF so how are you going to get fashion seekers out of tubes when you can't even get them into a well designed PCB.. (You would be shocked to know how many there are out there BTW)..
Also looking at it from my bench there really is nothing new under the sun or that has not already been done in tube driven guitar amps since perhaps Ampeg..(sure you could argue built in effects processing)
So lets say in fact someone does invent a SS guitar amp that rivals that of a tube amp in every way shape and form and has the potential to actually thrive this time around You would have to prove this to those players that have had long perhaps fond relationship with their tube amps.. You would then need vast resources a large marketing campaign an large amounts of MONEY to suceed in swaying the public opinion/fashion.. Even then it's a huge risk!!..I can see the ad now..
A SS amp that sounds just as good as your hand made tube amp.. Yeah that will get them to buy your product!!..
The BIG problem I see is not so much the invention of such a SS device it's the marketing/financial backing of one that will eventually turn a profit
Until the day comes where someone somewhere design's it then proves it (permanently) and overcomes the perception we continue to stay locked in this somewhat seemingly timeless fashion statement..The longer tube amps continue to thrive the harder it will be to leave them.. IMHO
I would bet you my left one someone out there has actually designed and built one too ..
MONEY and war is the driving force behind technology and in the end what gets handed to the masses..

Tony

[Bob-I]

I remember in Electronic Engineering class in 1977 the instructor telling us that we wouldn't be spending much time at all on tube theory.

Children, I'm hanging with children.

My first year of electrical engineering we didn't even talk about SS, all tubes.

There was a period of time that all I had was an old Ampeg solid state amp that reportedly put out 100 watts.
It was a clean amp and I would use a distortion pedal like a Boss OD-1 to goose it. But it kept blowing power transistors so finally I gave up on it.

My first SS amp was a Sunn Beta lead. It blew up on the first song on the first gig. I was so convinced that SS was reliable that I didn't even have a spare amp so I had to do the gig direct into the PA.

After about a year trying to keep that amp running, and failing, I bought a Music Man 65, still have it, still sounds great and it's never even been opened up.

[renshen1957]

Here is a BIG Problem!!
If you wanted to take this a step further and perhaps ask yourself this? TALKING SS AMPS HERE AND NOW!

In the world of Boutique..
Here we are in 2011 and still cutting and punching eyelet/turret boards here..

Why is a good portion of the general public still hung up on using PCB..
Could it be a fashion statement..

Well, I see it as the hang up is on many levels.

As a boutique builder, unless you want to commit to a specific circuit, pay for CNC programming, use only certain brands of components based on size, and a guarantee you will produce and sell a sufficient number of a particular model, PCB boards do not make sense.

I use a variety of components, build different types of circuits for individual amps, and frankly making a circuit board for each alla a Radio Shack circuit kit doesn't make sense, either.

I can very easily and quickly fabricate an eyelet circuit card adjusted for a change in available NOS signal caps or modern manufacture, etc.

As a sometime amp repairman, circuit boards are harder to work unless you are a contortionist, or in the case of the anemic copper traces found in many PCB of Fender products a masochist. Work on a Vox (Thomas Organ) American Transistor PCB from the 1960's isn't so bad. A cheap SS amp with components to close together so you have to worry about parasitic capacitances, oscillation, and power traces and signal traces to close isn't my idea of fun. And after all the landfill beginners amps that go unloved and unrepaired, SS PCB amps don't have a great reputation.

A vintage amp (Blackface or Tweed) from Fender is easily repaired and maintained.

IF so how are you going to get fashion seekers out of tubes when you can't even get them into a well designed PCB.. (You would be shocked to know how many there are out there BTW)..

Well designed PCBs are found in the work of Soul Tone, then again Mickey overspecs his boards to Military and yes in some cases NASA standards.

However Soul Tone also offers Turret Board construction, too. The end consumer drives the market.

PCB are the Industry standard of Military spec, and PCBs built to Mil Spec do have less stress on the components, better mechanical connectivity, and better unit to unit consistency.

Most of the Big Names in Guitars and Guitar Amps, don't build Mil Spec PCBs or use Mil Spec components.

Most consumer product PCBs have in design cost counting as more important than solid workman ship, fastons for connections, possibly machine stuffed (less likely in a smaller builder) using parts designed to be machine stuffed.

Unfortunately, MBAs/bean counters feel that employees are liabilities and the greatest expense to be eliminated at all costs and tolerated only when no alternative.

For smaller builders or beginning builders a circuit board isn't going to distinguish you in the market place.

I can ask and receive a higher price for my amps because I can say, "See? all hand wired using either point to point, terminal strips, turret boards, or circuit cards (eyelets). A musician perceives this feature as durable and built for the road. Thus I gain points as a builder for a quality, and the customer is happy. However, it is just as easy to build a bad handwired amp.

When was the last time if ever a potential customer said to you, "I want it built on a PCB just like Marshall does."?

Also looking at it from my bench there really is nothing new under the sun or that has not already been done in tube driven guitar amps since perhaps Ampeg..(sure you could argue built in effects processing)

Well Ampeg was using PCBs as early as the 1950's, however I don't agree entirely with your statement. Since the late 50's one has seen Master Volumes (introduced by Traynor before 1963), Hybrid amps (a tube providing the tone and the transconductance provided by MOSFETS driving OT), Power Scaled Amps (or also known by other name from copy cats), Channel Switching Amps, to name a few. Unless you are familiar with Kevin O'Connor you wouldn't know his gMX circuits or using a single power tube for a push-pull circuit, or 700 watt tube Super Scalers.

On the other hand if you were referring to the original Ampeg SVT, that wasn't as original invention as one would think. From its speaker array to its original use of Transmitting tubes to make a high powered tube amp, Traynor's Super Custom Special preceded the SVT on all accounts. And from what I've heard a Super Custom Special's cab purchased and shipped in from Canada was the origin for the SVT's cabs.

So lets say in fact someone does invent a SS guitar amp that rivals that of a tube amp in every way shape and form and has the potential to actually thrive this time around You would have to prove this to those players that have had long perhaps fond relationship with their tube amps.. You would then need vast resources a large marketing campaign an large amounts of MONEY to suceed in swaying the public opinion/fashion.. Even then it's a huge risk!!..I can see the ad now..
A SS amp that sounds just as good as your hand made tube amp.. Yeah that will get them to buy your product!!..

One of the reason SS amps are held in such low esteem is that Fender tried to eliminate its tube amp line by introducing SS versions of the lineup, Twin, Deluxe, ect, the Musicians didn't buy it literally at the time.

Fender's motivation was money. (And to copy Standel amps. Standel had SS amps, and Fender had copied features from Standal tube amps). SS amps do not have an output transformer (a few early exceptions), use lower voltage components, and compared to tubes for rectifiers, pre amplifier (transistors) and power amplifier components cheaper.

And instead of investing money in research and thinking outside of the box (designing class A SS circuits that required big, expensive heatsinks and had less wattage), the basis has always been make it cheap and cheaply made. The thought of using a Cascode of 2 Transistors (to simulate a tube) is just too expensive even when the economies of scale might an extra dollar added to the retail price.

Every Virtual Tube SS tube that has been offered has been for the low end market, beginners market, or for a niche that can't yet afford the lowest price Tube Amp.

With Bugera (Behringer) making cheap, cheaply made tube amp clone knockoffs of Peavey Amps offshore that market is shrinking.

Ampeg made some well made SS amps for their niche market which was basically for Amps to be played clean. I would rather have Ampeg over a Bugera.

The BIG problem I see is not so much the invention of such a SS device it's the marketing/financial backing of one that will eventually turn a profit
Until the day comes where someone somewhere design's it then proves it (permanently) and overcomes the perception we continue to stay locked in this somewhat seemingly timeless fashion statement..The longer tube amps continue to thrive the harder it will be to leave them.. IMHO

A SS innovation would be newsworthy and thrive, but don't count out the Tube amp.

Tubes have been around since before 1907. The 6L6 has been around since 1936. The US and Europe stopped production in the 1980's. That was going to be the end of tubes.

Many tubes have outlived the original transistors that were supposed to replace them.

The Transistor market currently is driven by switching device uses (for power supplies MOSFETS) for computers, cellphone technology, and consumer grade TV sets and 5.1 speaker systems, portable MP3 players, computer (other components) IPads, Digital, etc Transistors aren't going to disappear.

The Audiophiles and the Musicians wouldn't let Tubes die as a consumer product (Tubes were still being used for TV transmission and Radio Transmission) because of the tone.

Most of the rest of the world (and un-initiated) doesn't know or couldn't care less about the difference between SS and Tubes. They couldn't afford to have Tube audio, nor would it be important, too them. Analog reproduction is an unknown or maybe they might remember VHS Hi-Fi as their sound source and couldn't care less (because of not experiencing the positive factors of tubes).

Sound Quality and High Fidelity just isn't even in the running for transistors, except for maybe in Japan's domestic market. Tube amps still dominate the field for audiophile sound.

(I can get about 600 bucks for my 1960's tube amp, and if I had a MacIntosh tube amp, I could get thousands. How many SS integrated amps from the 1960's 1970's 1980's can command that price?)

The audio world of the masses is driven by Walmart purchasers purchasing Surround Sound for their DVD player.

As I said, Tubes have outlasted many of the original SS offerings meant to replace them. I have to go to NOS surplus dealers around the world to find certain transistors that were made in the 1960's-1990's and no longer in production.

I would bet you my left one someone out there has actually designed and built one too ..
MONEY and war is the driving force behind technology and in the end what gets handed to the masses..

Tony

If one could design transistors to do what a tube does and with incredible variability of a tube, and built a product of your dreams, there would be a market. However with so many failed attempts to market/promote (lie) about a product as being equal to a tube amp and wasn't, most musicians are skeptical.



Best Regards,

Steve

[Cliff Schecht]

Back in the early 90's I had a sound company and did a ton of Wedding/Hotel gigs in DC mixing all types of bands..The modeling amps had just appeared and the guy's doing those types of gig's really liked them..They were light and you could fill them with a ton of sounds and at whisper volumes no big pedal boards and when mic'd got the job done,especially the ones who knew how to program them right didn't sound half bad (for a wedding) from the board..(As long as you keep the power amp out of clipping)
Still not a tube amp!!

Tony

Hi Tony,

I agree with you. It's still a case of close, but no cigar (and margarine still doesn't taste like butter after 142 years). Digital still doesn't sound like the real thing.

Quite a few younger musicians use line 6 amps. Fine for low level recording into their computer, for gigs in small venues, and for cover bands which require a large palette of sounds for a variety of numbers.
However, whats the point of having 31 flavors when they're just different shades of gray. How many major bands that exclusively use Digital modeling Amps?

Guitar companies are still trying and failing to sell their version of Tube simulation amps (whichever method used) and all the marketing and adverstisement isn't deceiving anyone's ears.

Digital has a long, long way to go before it can reproduce all the dynamics of a tube amp. There will have to be a breakthrough in processor speed, and especially memory, ect. and a paradigm shift to rethink all the parameters of pick attack, velocity, decay, compression, harmonics, sustain or sag and to clone all of tonal variances tubes exhibit.

I made the acquaintance of a former Line 6 "artist" (endorsee) who still uses their digital effects board, it was all for free. He was given a Line 6 amp. He tours his vintage Fenders.

Transistor amps and Digital amps (include Digital effects) are often sited as being more reliable than Tube amps. To the contrary when any of these break down outside of warranty, it's landfill time, cheaper to buy a new unit than to pay to repair them.

I would liken Tube amps to automobles, you perform maintenance repairs, replace the tires when they wear out, ect.

As an invited guest at touring bands rehearsal, their lead guitarist's Line 6 digital pedal board gave up the ghost when a low voltage zener diode in the power supply went up in smoke. His attitude was, "oh great, $199 bucks is going to the landfill.

His rig (tube amp) actually sounded better without the pedal, even the drummer commented on the improvement in the tone.

Solid State has its place (all those later studio recordings of the Beatles have English Vox SS amps) as a different flavor. Short of a primitive SE class A power amp that doesn't take advantage of semi-conductor gain (which would be expensive to make), transistors have too many artifacts to sound exactly like a tube amp.

Best Regards

Steve

Sorry but I have to strongly disagree that digital signal processing can't accurately reproduce the subtleties of a tube amp. Anyone who is well versed in modern technologies and capabilities would realize how benign that sort statement has really become.

One of my good friends and I have spent hundreds of hours discussing and designing digital systems that can accurately emulate analog without sounding like, well, emulations. We call it "analog inspired digital" style design and while I honestly can't program for shit, I've spend a lot of time figuring out and studying quirks in analog and my buddy will figure out how to model whatever phenomenon in digital. While our focus is on analog synths at the moment, I can promise you that we could (and eventually will) shift our focus to modeling the strange things that happen when you push a tube amplifier into the non-linear operating regions.

The thing is that a lot of the digital stuff that has been introduced so far has been complete crap and this has tainted a lot of peoples views of what digital modeling is really capable of. It's a shame too because as hard as some try to change peoples opinions, guitar players are some stubborn bastards and it's hard to undo the damage that has been done in the past. All I can really say is give it another 10 years and I bet many people will change their tune (tube?) when it comes to digital modeling stuff.