Speaker Cab Cable

[groovtubin]

I‘m very sorry guys but SPEAKER CABLE length has no audible effect on speaker frequency response! Period.
The typical 12AWG zip cord has about 3.4 Mohms of loop resistance per foot, .200uH/ft of Inductance and about 20pF/ft of capacitance. As the cable length increases, these three parameters increase proportionally. However, it takes very long lengths of cable to cause measurable, let alone audible differences.

If you are really interested, here is a good info about that
http://www.audioholics.com/education/ca ... s-debunked
Cheers

totally agree to disagree with you, i`ve built for Diaz, Electric amp, ""everything counts"" , engineer stuff is useless at times, even Paul Rivera put it this way, no flaming you, but i simply disagree, if i put a 6 ft george L speaker cable in, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in sound! This IS a amp builder forum, not a engineering class!! Most of use out EARS not our brains! lololo!! ANd pls don`t flame me on that, i`m 51 retired Navy, i`ve taken more Sh$% than you or anyone could EVER deliver, TRUST ME! lol!

respectfully, jim@Omegaamps.com

[M Fowler]

Jim,

Navy! Did you know in Webster's dictionary it says a squid is a lower form of marine life?

Semper fi Jim

Mark
USMC

[ericlee]

i`m 51 retired Navy

[Cliff Schecht]

I‘m very sorry guys but SPEAKER CABLE length has no audible effect on speaker frequency response! Period.
The typical 12AWG zip cord has about 3.4 Mohms of loop resistance per foot, .200uH/ft of Inductance and about 20pF/ft of capacitance. As the cable length increases, these three parameters increase proportionally. However, it takes very long lengths of cable to cause measurable, let alone audible differences.

If you are really interested, here is a good info about that
http://www.audioholics.com/education/ca ... s-debunked
Cheers

I was waiting for somebody else to make this post! It's pretty obvious why guitars suffer so badly from lousy cabling while speakers don't.. Look at the output impedance of a guitars pickup (and the amount of capacitance per foot) compared to a tube amp output. You are looking at the difference between thousands of Ohms (passive pickups) and a few Ohms.

Like with any system, the ideal scenario for the best voltage transfer is the lowest output impedance you can going into the highest input impedance you can get. This way the "voltage divider" formed by the series output impedance (R1) and resistance to ground input impedance (R2). But the guitars pickups again have a high impedance which causes signal degradation when ran through long, capacitive/inductive shielded cables. The shielded cable plays a part in the RCL system formed by your pickups, pots caps and amplifier input. Active pickups alleviate the typical problems with guitar pickups by driving the cables with a low output impedance (more current) which reduces or eliminates the loading effects.

Now with amp outputs, you are looking at matched impedance system for the best POWER transfer. Since the output impedance is very low, the current driving capability is very high and the cable parasitics are relatively negligible, even the close to 1 dB of loss that is incurred through 30 or 40 feet of cabling is not easily detectable by the human ear. The available bandwidth going to the speaker isn't reduced nearly at all by the cable (again, lots of current to charge the cable capacitance). The overshoot/damping properties might be affected slightly by longer cables, but the point is the losses due to long cabling are very minimal. As to whether these effects are really noticeable, they probably are to the trained ear but not to everyone. Just imagine that mostly non-musicians will be listening to your amp (hopefully) and think if THEY can tell the difference. If not then it's just us being anal about our sound.

[Structo]

George L speaker cable or instrument cable is not what I call high end.

His gimick was the solderless plugs and cable.

The speaker cable specs are:

• Twin, parallel zip type cable
• Heavy 16 AWG

What is heavy 16 gauge? Is that thicker 16 gauge?

Although 16 ga cable is big enough to carry most of what our amps deliver, I like to oversize speaker cable to at least 14 ga if not 12.
It's too big when I can't fit it into an eyelet of a jack.

16 gauge wire is 0.40160 ohms per 100 feet.

14 gauge is 0.25250 ohms per 100 feet.

[WhopperPlate]

I've noticed incorporating different length speaker cable and even adding a simple DI/lineout box into a signal path can dramatically effect the feel and response of a guitar amp. I've gone from playing a dead amp that won't sing on any note, to having harmonic bloom and feedback on any note, just from swapping and adding different components to the amp output.

In fact, I use a Weber Mass200 on bypass all the time because of the positive effect it adds to my sound. Without it my notes just don't push back or hang on as long.

Granted I don't understand exactly what is going on, but the difference is undeniable to myself and others that allowed me to demonstrate. Most definitely agree with groovtubin.

[Cliff Schecht]

The damping factor I mentioned above has a LOT to do with how the output stage is going to react with the speaker. Too much damping (long, resistive cables) will cause things to sound dead whereas too little can make the amp quickly break into nasty oscillations (this starts having more to do with plate resistance and triode/pentode at a certain point). I assume that a longer cable will increase the damping and affect how the speaker overshoots with the output stage. I usually aim for a low damping factor though, those huge overshoots you see when you distort a speaker are really part of the magic of a distorted output stage (they present a STRONG and dynamic mostly second harmonic that makes things sound nice and RICH).

[HiGain]

OK... Here is the quote from Ken Fischer's trainwreck pages. Mind you this is just what one person wrote, so that doesn't make it true. But, KF sure does get a lot of respect around here as a designer and a builder.

"The wire used to connect your amp to its speakers can also have an affect on your sound. The same holds true for the wire used inside your speaker cabinets. Just like guitar cables there is a trend toward voodoo products in the speaker wire market..."

He continues, "The current thinking is that the shortest length of the heaviest wire is the way to go."

And then, "My personal testing has shown that this isn't always the case. Short lengths of thick wire will give less volume loss, more high end, and a tighter more controlled sound. However, all guitar amps generate some trash in their sound when pushed to distortion. Longer and thinner wire can sometimes help to filter out this static and make the amp sound smoother and less harsh."

On damping he writes, "Also, the longer or thinner wire can reduce damping of the speaker cone motion. This can provide more ring. For example, I sue 20 feet of 18 gauge vacuum cleaner power cord to my favorite JMI AC30 speaker cabinet. I get the most chime and jangle with that wire. If I use 3 feet of 16 gauge lamp wire I get a tighter sound with more high end but less chime and warmth. Lamp wire is cheap and works well but there are also many pre-made wires that also work well. Let your ears be the judge."

I'm pretty certain I have a distinct preference, but I will do a blind test with my wife (no jokes!) and report back.

-j

[martin manning]

What does one do with this extra-long wire... coil it up somewhere? What effect does that have on its electrical properties?

[ericlee]

I'm pretty certain I have a distinct preference, but I will do a blind test with my wife (no jokes!) and report back.
-j

Can you try to do the test also with oscilloscope and generator?
Apply about 4000Hz first and about 20 000 next with different cables, compare amplitude differences – easy!

In any circumstances I recommend to use silver-plated oxygen-free copper wire.
Check out the specs:
Overall dimensions: 7 x 3mm
Total cross-section: 0.7mm2
Capacitance (nominal): 60nF/km
Resistance (nominal): 25.52Ω/km
Max current: 13A (at 60°C)
Max working voltage: 300Vac
Note: Silver Solder N51AW must be used to solder silver wires.

Cheers

[daydreamer]

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Science has the iresistable appeal of establishing truth, when in reality it rounds far too many numbers to approach 'the real'.

The question of what a person can hear is so massively subjective. My hearing, despite 20 years of construction industry abuse and rock n' roll, is actually better than my wifes, who own voice is probaly the loudest thing she has ever heard.. (which may well defeat my point...but I'll press on anyway!)

I think some can hear minute differences and some not so much, as long as you are comfortable with the sound you are making then everything else is, well, irrelevant.

We could do a neil young and only play on the three days leading up to the new moon...with a KM of speaker cable and still not get the feel right. I think if you notice a difference, then there is a difference; science be damned...or at least taken lightly and well salted!!!

[scotto]

EE friend at work convinced me to use heavy gauge Home Depot extension cord cable with good connectors. Sounds fine to my marginally functional ears

[groovtubin]

i`m 51 retired Navy

totally uncalled for, ..u can do better i know it!

jim

[groovtubin]

I'm pretty certain I have a distinct preference, but I will do a blind test with my wife (no jokes!) and report back.
-j

Can you try to do the test also with oscilloscope and generator?
Apply about 4000Hz first and about 20 000 next with different cables, compare amplitude differences – easy!

In any circumstances I recommend to use silver-plated oxygen-free copper wire.
Check out the specs:
Overall dimensions: 7 x 3mm
Total cross-section: 0.7mm2
Capacitance (nominal): 60nF/km
Resistance (nominal): 25.52Ω/km
Max current: 13A (at 60°C)
Max working voltage: 300Vac
Note: Silver Solder N51AW must be used to solder silver wires.

Cheers

i DEF trust Ken Fisher`s ears more than i would YOURS, PERIOD..how dense are you??

jim

[vibratoking]

This topic has been beat to death over the years. I especially appreciate the famous coat hanger experiment. I have also experimented with this quite a bit. With guitar amps and with high end audio equipment. My short take is that my ears tell me the math is correct. EEs use math in the design process because it works! It ain't black magic and rounding error has nothing to do with it. I just cannot hear any differences between high end cable and 16AWG zip cord. Call me deaf, but I use the zip cord as a result. The cheap Home Depot shit. Use what makes you feel good. One of my bandmates spends like crazy on high end cable. I buy him beers with the money I save.