Dumble note flipping caught on sound file!

[JD0x0]

No problemo! Yeah the tone is a little buzzy for my taste, I think it has to do with the fact he's running ALOT of filtering on the snubbers, something like 1000p or something on v2b.

Pickmaster has a ton of mods so it's hard to tell what the "trick" is but I can tell you that lower slope values add quite a bit of bloom and touch sensativity. Im currently running 75k slope on an otherwise stock skyliner stack.

Edit: yes structo Dr. Ika is Pickmaster. I wouldnt be so skeptic, my warmoth tele blooms a little unplugged and unamplified. Much more than my other guitars. You can hear the note get bigger a few seconds after it's struck. It wont bloom into harmonic feedback unless plugged in though.

[vibratoking]

How can something bloom or feedback without speakers?

This can happen if the circuit is setup so that the magnitude of the electrical feedback in the circuit is unity or more and 180 degrees out of phase for some frequency. This is the concept of phase margin. Sounds like the second harmonic in this case. I believe this is BobW's thought about feedback control theory.

[bluesy]

......how does a Hammond tonewheel organ induce/introduce the 2nd or 3rd harmonic? They have a rocker tablet labeled just so. And if you listen to the great B3 players you can hear various notes take on a type of "flip", if you will. What's in Hammond circuitry that does this? Is it related or applicable to guitar amps?
________
CHRONIC FATIGUE FORUMS

[vibratoking]

......how does a Hammond tonewheel organ induce/introduce the 2nd or 3rd harmonic? They have a rocker tablet labeled just so. And if you listen to the great B3 players you can hear various notes take on a type of "flip", if you will. What's in Hammond circuitry that does this? Is it related or applicable to guitar amps?

I am not familiar with the Hammond circuit, but I suspect it does this based on what key has been depressed. I think there is circuitry for each key. There is a big advantage in that case because the circuit 'knows' which key has been depressed and can generate harmonics accordingly. A guitar amp circuit does not have that advantage and must generate this for each note if it is going to do this optimally.

[stevlech]

That brings up another possibility- oscillations. Could there by chance be feedback loops in the lead dress that resonate with particular pitches?

I"m just throwing out an idea...

[TheHandsomeOrk]

Interesting take on the bloom thing. I've heard same on youtube clips but the overall tone to me sucks. I can't listen to it for longer than 30 seconds before my ears get sore. I'm not being nasty it's just how it affects me. A dumble tone to me is something I enjoy listen to no matter how good/ bad the player is (unless they really suck bad) and those clicps remind me of a cheap pedal through a transistor amp. I should know as I've used similar setups playing mustang sally to punters (to pissed to notice) in bars. Yep you can get bloom from stacking pedals straight through a desk into PA but sure aint no Dumble.

[BobW]

How can something bloom or feedback without speakers?

This can happen if the circuit is setup so that the magnitude of the electrical feedback in the circuit is unity or more and 180 degrees out of phase for some frequency. This is the concept of phase margin. Sounds like the second harmonic in this case. I believe this is BobW's thought about feedback control theory.

Exactly, thanks for clarifying vibratoking.

[ericlee]

How can something bloom or feedback without speakers?

This can happen if the circuit is setup so that the magnitude of the electrical feedback in the circuit is unity or more and 180 degrees out of phase for some frequency. This is the concept of phase margin. Sounds like the second harmonic in this case. I believe this is BobW's thought about feedback control theory.

Give this man a cigar! no two cigars!!
Dr.Ika (pickmaster or Eric Lee) is here and I'd like to defuse some skepticism about upper mentioned sound samples.
As I've mentioned before (and nobody noticed) this "bloom'n flip" phenomenon is a combination of several factors: amp, guitar, speaker etc.
First of all, clips were recorded direct to the PC from the amp's effects send out !!! not surprising that tone is harsh, but in this experiment tone was not a concern, "bloom'n flip" was.
Before I continue let's do other experiment - get a guitar with a neck pickup very closer to the strings (in my case PAF humbacker. Well spoted dear vibratoking). Plug it to the nice compressor.To avoid acoustic feedback listen via the headphones. Turn compressor's GAIN up and ATTACK down. Play sustaining notes on all fingerboard. Some notes on some frets will "Bloom'n flip" much more then others, especially when note fades out. Obviously different guitars will have blooming notes on different frets.
Compressor is an AVC device and it amplifies weak 2nd harmonic on the end of the note. If you do this with a speaker you also can get acoustic feedback and infinite sustain.

Now about amp. Just for experiment sake I've removed V1 NFB and lowered V1's 150k slope resistor down to 57k which added compression and lower mids. From input to the V1 and almost all internal shielded cables were changed to RG 174 28pf/ft coax. Tweaked a tone stack for my taste/touch and tweaked PI tube. That's it, no rocket science.
This effect is much more evident without speaker but it is much more complex end pleasant with nice speaker at the gig volumes where you have guitar, amp, speaker etc, interaction.

Now, Tag's "fast note phase flip" is a different phenomenon. It is evident from his clips that Tag has a strong pick or finger attack . If amp's PI tube is not ideally symmetrical you will have amplitude dependent frequency phase shifting on each note, faster on high and slower on lower notes.
So, Tag open your amp and tweak the PI trimmer, you might enhance the "flipping" effect.

Cheers

[Structo]

From the Robben/ Sco concert Saturday night.
Posted at teh Gear Page.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=815292


Tune
http://flashpoint.globat.com/FlashPoint ... 20tone.mp3

[BobW]

+1! Thanks Tom

[Max]

As far as I understand this discussion at least a part of its topic is to discuss what precisely causes the perceptions of Mr Dumble (and others) that he described as note flipping and straining etc.:

the construction (woods etc.) of the guitar, the pickups, the playing technique, the technical specs of the amp circuit and connection cables, interaction between speaker and guitar, specs of the room/venue etc. etc..

All these factors play indeed an obvious part in the process that in the end results in the air pressure stimuli Mr Dumble perceives as note flipping (as an example) – or however else you want to call it.

But it seems to me that at least most of the posts in this discussion up to know don't consider the fact, that the human perception of sound is no 1:1 representation of the measurable physical parameters of these air pressure stimuli. So one of the most important factors you must know precisely if you want to intentionally create this note flipping perception (and of course any other kind of sound perception) in the mind of Mr Dumble (and others) with a guitar and a guitar amp is the relationship between the measurable physical parameters of these air pressure stimuli and the perception of sound by the human sound perception system.

Only if you know how the human perception of these air pressure stimuli precisely and in detail relates to all the different physical parameters of these air pressure stimuli you can find out in a first step precisely what kind of air pressure stimuli with precisely what kind of physical parameters have to be applied to human ears to achieve this note flipping perception in the human mind.

And only after you have made this first step you are IMO able to find out in further steps what kind of guitar, pickups, playing technique, amp circuit, cables, speakers, room specs etc. etc. are needed to create precisely those physical parameters of the air pressure stimuli that the human sound perception system perceives as note flipping, straining or whatever else you may think of concerning "tone".

Because of this I personally have a hard time to understand why (at least in my personal perception) the amp building community and most - or at least many - of the boutique amp builders have such a strong interest to understand the physics of the process that results in the movement of a guitar speaker and the resulting air pressure stimuli but do not seem to have any interest at all to study the biological and psychological parameters that steer the process by which these air pressure stimuli are transformed in what we humans perceive in our minds as sound and some of these sounds as music.

As I’ve posted before in other threads here, it is really a deep mystery for me why people interested in building musical instruments often have such a strong interest in the results of the science of physics but hardly any interest at all in the results of the science of psychoacoustics.

Especially hard to understand IMO as all here constantly post - or at least listen to - clips in the mp3 file format which IMO is a rather impressive application of results of the science of psychoacoustics ("masking" - only as one example: http://www.mp3-converter.com/mp3codec/m ... ffects.htm ) and a great proof how far a way this science went since the early days of the world war II psychoacoustic laboratory in Harvard.

Psychoacoustics for beginners:

http://books.google.com/books?id=qgsst2 ... &q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=eGcfn9 ... &q&f=false

Cheers,

Max

[erwin_ve]

Max: good post! I really like discovering how things are related and it's all there.
Unfortunatly I don't have time to study all things involved.
Work, wife, kids and a hobby ampbuilding.
Also my brain can't possibly do that kind of multtasking at the moment. My wife has that capability but I don't. Anyway I like ampbuilding for hobby purposes and wheter the note flips or not, I slowly learn and pick up some interesting concepts. I'm happy with it.

If I had time on my hands I like to study this, as well as the concept of magnetism-->Hardcore quantum physics. very intersting stuff.

[ericlee]

Thanks Max, Nice post and very interesting material to read and learn.

it is really a deep mystery for me why people interested in building musical instruments often have such a strong interest in the results of the science of physics but hardly any interest at all in the results of the science of psychoacoustics.

I think there is no mistery,
I would not suggest that people are not interested. Some of us just not aware that such information exists. Also it is to large and complicated to absorb, digest and master. It is hard to embrace science of acoustics left alone Psychoacoustics, biology and neurophysiology.
We are bloody guitarists mate, simple geezers, who wants to plug and play, tweak-tweak and straight away sound like RF or LC.

But seriously it would be great to absorb all this knowledge and try to use it practically.

Cheers

[BobW]

Thanks Max, I can only grasp one concept at a time. It's an interesting read and something to certainly be considered when wanting to replicate what we have (or thought we have) heard.

[vibratoking]

But it seems to me that at least most of the posts in this discussion up to know don't consider the fact, that the human perception of sound is no 1:1 representation of the measurable physical parameters of these air pressure stimuli. So one of the most important factors you must know precisely if you want to intentionally create this note flipping perception (and of course any other kind of sound perception) in the mind of Mr Dumble (and others) with a guitar and a guitar amp is the relationship between the measurable physical parameters of these air pressure stimuli and the perception of sound by the human sound perception system.

You bring up some interesting points. First of all, I understand something about human hearing. I don't agree that psycho/acoustics is one of the most important factors regarding the subject of blooming, flipping, strain, etc... I am focusing on the guitar and circuit because I believe this is where the phenomenon originate. I know that it is not a 1:1 relationship as you mention, but I understand Fletcher-Munson and the logarithmic function of the human ear as well as many of the limitations of human hearing, for instance. I believe blooming is measurable and is not caused or heard by something unmeasurable. This is not a psycho-acoustic phenomenon IMO.

Only if you know how the human perception of these air pressure stimuli precisely and in detail relates to all the different physical parameters of these air pressure stimuli you can find out in a first step precisely what kind of air pressure stimuli with precisely what kind of physical parameters have to be applied to human ears to achieve this note flipping perception in the human mind.

I disagree with regard to the subject at hand. I believe you are confusing how sound is perceived with how sound is generated. I don't think there is any psycho-acoustic principle that applies to hearing blooming, for instance.

And only after you have made this first step you are IMO able to find out in further steps what kind of guitar, pickups, playing technique, amp circuit, cables, speakers, room specs etc. etc. are needed to create precisely those physical parameters of the air pressure stimuli that the human sound perception system perceives as note flipping, straining or whatever else you may think of concerning "tone".

I disagree.

Because of this I personally have a hard time to understand why (at least in my personal perception) the amp building community and most - or at least many - of the boutique amp builders have such a strong interest to understand the physics of the process that results in the movement of a guitar speaker and the resulting air pressure stimuli but do not seem to have any interest at all to study the biological and psychological parameters that steer the process by which these air pressure stimuli are transformed in what we humans perceive in our minds as sound and some of these sounds as music.

I, for one, am interested. If you would be so kind, please explain to me how psycho-acoustics applies in any significant way to blooming, flipping, straining, etc... I am always interested and happy to learn something new.

From your use of the terms, I have the feeling that you don't have all of them well defined in your own mind. I know that I still don't have flipping well defined in my mind.

As an aside, I am still waiting for a single note clip that leaves no doubt as to what flipping is. This is perhaps where the concepts of the perception of sound come into play. Having said that, I happen to think that clips which absolutely demonstrate the phenomenon, and no other phenomenon, are still necessary. The clip posted earlier, with no speaker involved clearly defines blooming. I have yet to hear one for flipping or strain. Until the concepts are unequivocally defined, the discussion cannot proceed logically IMO.