Starting a Business

[daydreamer]

Selloutrr, you have hit it on the head. That's what I think the real issue is, and is what is spurring me on, I don't think I'm alone wanting something different, so to do the business plan I need real build times...please:D

Why would you buy my amp (completely theoretical at this point)?, because firstly, you fell in love with it from the other side of the room!.
By the time you had walked the distance to stroke it's gleaming knobs your wallet was in your hand and next your months mortgage payment in mine...You get the point though, I'm not scoffing at paying $950, more so I had to 'import' it to get something that had anything different about it.


My natural bent is art and design, and I build houses for a living so coming up with the cosmetics at an affordable price is not a big deal, I have contacts in sheetmetal, timber, etc, and when I say build, I mean everything from drafting the plans through to tiling to bathroom. My trade is carpentry based, so nothing about that side worries me, If the consensus is that Champ is a 15 hour build though, I can start to see the numbers looking rather sad.

[marcoloco961]

Selloutrr, you have hit it on the head. That's what I think the real issue is, and is what is spurring me on, I don't think I'm alone wanting something different, so to do the business plan I need real build times...please:D

Why would you buy my amp (completely theoretical at this point)?, because firstly, you fell in love with it from the other side of the room!.
By the time you had walked the distance to stroke it's gleaming knobs your wallet was in your hand and next your months mortgage payment in mine...You get the point though, I'm not scoffing at paying $950, more so I had to 'import' it to get something that had anything different about it.


My natural bent is art and design, and I build houses for a living so coming up with the cosmetics at an affordable price is not a big deal, I have contacts in sheetmetal, timber, etc, and when I say build, I mean everything from drafting the plans through to tiling to bathroom. My trade is carpentry based, so nothing about that side worries me, If the consensus is that Champ is a 15 hour build though, I can start to see the numbers looking rather sad.

Build time can vary depending on several variables. Are you building one amp at a time, or will you spend one day building boards, one day assembling chassis, and another building cabinets? Will your cabinets be wooden finished, or a black tolex box made of pressed board? Too many variables to give a decent estimate of time.

Obviously, the more simple the design, the less labor, and cheapest assembly costs. You could cut 10 circuit boards then drill all 10 at once. This method would be more cost efficient than doing them one at a time. On the other hand, if you drill one wrong hole you have scrapped 10 boards. It's all relevant.

Bottom line is, what does your amp offer that I cannot get elsewhere, cheaper? Sound being the biggest concern on my estimation. Sometimes it can be rough to build a proven circuit and get it to sound as it should, let alone, trying to manufacture and sell a unproven circuit.

Trust me, I have considered this very thing myself. From what I have seen here, the best way to get yourself into the amp building scene is to get the knowledge to know what you are doing very well before jumping in with both feet.

Start by building a few amps, do it as neat and professionally as your talent permits. Don't rush, and be willing to listen and take advice. Get familiar with some of the more popular build designs, and familiarize yourself with the technical lingo.

Then find some folks with broken or older tube amps in need of some TLC, who are willing to let you work on them. If you do a good job and can make their amp sound and perform better than it has been for them, you should start to get some return business along with some new customers. Once you have built a reputation of being someone who can make an amp sound good again, then the step to actual builder of your own line is a much smaller step. JMO Oh and as mentioned earlier, if you can manage to get a "big name" to endorse your business through working on their amp. That doesn't hurt either. Again, this all takes a decent amount of time and education to come around.

Short answer, Tolex cabs, predrilled chassis, board based builds, after your first few, maybe 10 to 12 hours/ea. , if your fast, possibly a little less than 10 if you mass produce the components in a assembly line type atmosphere.

[daydreamer]

thanks marcoloco961,
very useful info, I realize it's highly subjective and full of variables, but that is what I need. Sort of like when friends ask me "how much and how long to owner-build a house?" all depends, if you go all out on the fancy stuff but only have weekends (like i did), then 4 years!! but keep it simple/ subbie everything out; 1 year. won't be cheap if you don't do a lot yourself though. but the straight answer always depends on doing it full time and the competence/ experience to trouble shoot. Full time, I could build the average house around here in 10 months max doing it all on my own. So it's not lost on me the variables/competence equation.

It's been enlightening to get everyone's view on this 'touchy' subject, and I definately could not have found a better set of minds to ask!.

cheers

Andy

[TheGimp]

Woah! 300% markup?!?

I don't think you're thinking correctly about this. His *TIME* is worth something. His *skill* is worth something. His *knowledge* is worth something. If he is hand-building the innards then it is absolutely reasonable to sell the amp for 3x the cost of the parts.

You're only talking about the cost of the *parts*!

300% markup is the defacto standard I've seen over the past 30 years in the electronics industry. That covered Consumer Products (Microwave, Washer/Drier, computers and toys) as well as industrial control products.

It sounds like a lot until you investigate all the cost the markup has to cover. Like your power, working facility (garage is great but it still is a cost), tool replacement (wire cutters, soldering station, etc all wear out), consumables (wire, solder, paper towels and cleaning supplies), Packing material, and your time.

[harleyboy2112]

You never know unless you try. One of my pet peeves is people telling other people "it won't work", "you won't be able to make it" etc. etc.
Go about it smartly & give it a try.

[selloutrr]

I think you in over your head. It's fun to dream but until you build a few basic starter amps and really see if this is something you can do / or even enjoy doing it's all just a dream. I as well as many members have a lot of experience soldering and troubleshooting so we can build amps faster then say the guy painting by numbers. My time to rebuild a champ from the ground up was 7 hours, but that might take you 3 days?

Now we have the issue of circuit design. What is yours? I will be honest if you say marshall, fender, hiwatt, soldano, Trainwreck.... I'm walking. I am not in the market to buy knock off amps.

I respect you think the cosmetics will sell your amp, but my wallet doesn't open unless my ears are impressed! or the amp has a history of being sought after and needs a repair.

How will you advertise? Do you have enough capital to float giving away amps for artist endorsement? I can think of a few dozen amp builders in a 100 mile radius of my front door that all make a similiar point to point 100w hi gain, hand build amp. all claiming to be awesome, asking top dollar, but have no artist support because they expect the artist to invest in the product and then promote for free. As an artist why spend money for something another company gives away, or pays you to play?

Have you taken the time to search Australia and see how many other amp builders you really have? Trademarks and logo infrigment? Licenses? Labor laws, even if it is just you. You need to look these things up and figure out your bottom line.

Even if you charge $3000 for an amp.
parts $1000
Cosmetics $200
labor 40hrs
license, trade marks, Taxes =
Attorney fees - If your amp shocks someone they will own you!

You might not make a profit unless you mass produce. If you mass produce you may never sell all your product. it's a fine line to walk.

Keep in mind. PCB = cheap amps (most of the time) and if you want top dollar you have to use Top shelf parts (most of the time)

I would be interested in seeing what you have in mind as far as a design. not so much looks but more the circuit.

Do you have any electronics experience?
Since you do carpentry... do you do finish cabinetry? you might consider teaming up with an already operational amp company and make them cabinets while you learn the ropes.

IMHO - build a amp have fun doing it. If a buddy wants it sell it for the cost of parts and some time. use the money to finance another build.
don't bother trying to have a company that ship has sailed, refer to my earlier posts for the skill set needed. now it's all about having FUN!

[Marvel]

I checked out your web site. Your Komplete Atom 18w is

647 Polish zlotys = 226.5328 US dollars (says Google)

is that right? How much is shipping to US?

Yes, that's right (excluding cabinet). The prices are:

Atom 5W $175.00
Atom 18W $225.00

But the shipping from Europe is around $100 and there may also be some duty fees or taxes.

Regards, Marcin

[67plexi]

Andy, how are your wood working skills, one advantage I can think of is the exotic wood in Australia Brady drums for example. Exotic wood could give you an edge over the rest of the amp builders in the world. I found this out by accident at a trade show I had tools with exotic wood handles and sold out all stock of exotic wood handle knifes in two hours 3 day show.
Steve.

[mcrracer]

Write up a detailed business plan. The mere exercise of writing your business plan will force you to research and think about this thing down to the smallest detail. Then you will know whether you have what it takes to do this and whether you have a market for what you want to do. Creating a serious business plan will probably take the better part of a month to do it right. I have opened a number of successful businesses over my lifetime and I am in the process of assisting my 19 year old son in developing and opening his first business. If you are serious, a business plan is a must...not an option.

[rp]

Musicians have no money.

[Marvel]

But they have GAS.

M.

[daydreamer]

Unless I stay up late, or get up early, (which i do, but I go excercising instead) I have to wait to continue the conversations, If only the world was flat..!

Selloutrr, without a doubt, a unique design is what is required. After reading and researching I do have a concept in mind, although in Perth a hand-wired amp would be unique to start with. And like many have pointed out, I have to build to know anyway, and for me, besides thoroughly enjoying this forum discussion, the last few days of research have turned up that there is no-one is making them on this side of the country. don't all rush in at once though, I haven't worked out why that is yet.!! Plenty of kich-arse bands originate in Perth, the latest in my book being Tame Impala who I think just finished touring the US. Why (besides Bradys Drums) there isn't a thriving instrument/tube amp manufacturing industry I'm yet to work out.

I may be a bit silent for a while as I do all the required research. You guys have sharpened my focus a lot, thanks again for the input. An incase anyone is wondering (I would be), 'why don't I just jump in' this is my best attempt to deal with SAS (Skill Acquisition Syndrome). There are just so few hours in a day, and so much cool stuff to learn...I would like immortality, not to keep from dying, just to keep on learning!!!

Andy

[Bear]

Would there be local demand for speaker cabs sans amps? Your existing skill set might work well for doing a cabs-only business. Probably much easier regulatory compliance and a smaller range of warranty issues.

[selloutrr]

the cab business is a good idea! you would be using a skill set you have, while you build a customer base and learn from clients what they want in an amp. later you can use your client base to start an amp company.

cabinet design is pretty straight forward and can still be eligant or botique when matched with the proper speakers finishes and materials. You might even make a profit

something that came to mind, what happened to the amp companies in oz? how much product does japan supply?

[daydreamer]

Thanks Bear,
that hadn't occurred to me, it is a really excellent idea. It would allow me to test the market in general, start up a brand name etc without the level of risk (safety, business, and legal wise). I already have the tools (I sold a lot of music gear years ago to buy them, ironically it would seem)

I've spoken with probably the most respected amp retailer and briefly with a 30 plus year veteran of local amp mods, it definitely would have to be a national venture at the very least to have enough market, though I'm not convinced that what I have in mind has been tried in Perth or Australia. But that said, Cabs is definitely the way to start out. I'll keep lurking around here, and start learning the tube trade though. Can anyone point the way the "The Cab Garage"?

thanks

Andy