Making the treble control more effective?

[brewdude]

Will LTC Spice run on a mac?

[Tonegeek]

In the pictured OTS HRM schematic, you set the Clean level in conjunction with the master and then adjust the OD Level to a suitable mix level. But that leaves no means to change the level of that mix without adjusting both the Master and OD Level.

But with the non-HRM master set up, once you set the Clean level in conjunction with the Master, and then adjust the OD Ratio to a suitable mix level, the Master operates to adjust their mix (both Clean and OD) at the same time.

Is that not better?

Probably better for most application since these amps are mostly about the OD tone. And it would be better on a gig as you only have one control for both clean and OD to deal with. But, if you need more control at the expense of simplicity then it's better to have a clean master. I did my HRM with a clean master because I wanted to get some dirt out of the Clean channel without affecting the OD channel too much. Turns out I don't use that feature now, so in the future I will probably just have one master.

[Structo]

All these different Master Volume circuits are really confusing me.
Which isn't unusual.
But I think the way I have my rig setup works pretty well.

Non HRM (D'Lite 50w).

I set the pre-volume at noon, the master at around 1:00 and the OD volume at noon.

Since I built my Dumbleator, that has become a very good tool with this amp.
I installed a 250K Return pot in place of the 220K fixed resistor on the original Dumbleator like a lot of guys do.

I set the Send pot at noon, the Return pot around 1:00 and then control the overall volume of the amp with the Output pot of the Dumbleator.
So the Output pot becomes the Grand Master of the rig.
Works very good from bedroom level to gig level and seems to retain the balance that I set up on the amp front panel.

You can also add more overdrive by turning the Send up and the Return down, that will even break up the clean sound a bit and really put some hair on the overdrive.
I do that sometimes at low volume when I want the illusion of a cranked amp.

The Dumbleator has been the best thing that I have done for this amp.
Currently I have a TC Electronics G Sharp with delay and reverb.
Man I will never doubt the guys that say TC is good stuff.
Very high quality sound from that.
I have a very small delay set up and a large reverb at low level as well.
I had my doubts at how well the TC unit was going to work in my serial loop but it works fine and adds just the right amount of warmth to my tone.

I still have my pedal board in the loop as well with a chorus, tremolo, and my EHX Stereo Memory Man, so I can set up different delays.

[Bob-I]

Probably better for most application since these amps are mostly about the OD tone.

I disagree with that, I like the D clean too and use it often. My gigging rig is a Dumble ODS 50 watt and a bastard Bassman with a T-Wreck Rocket Reverb type circuit with EL-34s. I use the D clean for a fat clean tone, Rocket for a brighter clean with a little hair on it, and of course the OD.

And it would be better on a gig as you only have one control for both clean and OD to deal with. But, if you need more control at the expense of simplicity then it's better to have a clean master. I did my HRM with a clean master because I wanted to get some dirt out of the Clean channel without affecting the OD channel too much. Turns out I don't use that feature now, so in the future I will probably just have one master.

I don't worry too much about volume at gigs, I keep my stage volume low enough that the sound man has asked me to turn up . I listen to myself through the in-ear monitors so I just set my volumes so all are fairly equal using the 2 masters on the D and an attenuator on the Bassman then let the sound man deal.

[LPSGME]

Can anyone tell me whether what I am observing in my amp, by way of wave form distortion in the OD stage, is correct.

When I listen to Scott's tone, he seems to get high sustain (and all the desirable dumble qualities) in a tone that is relatively clean sounding.

The only way I can get any similar sustain and syrupy lushness comes at the price of a more 'distorted' sounding tone.

A while back I posted an example of the waveform distortion (of a sine wave) that I see in the OD section when overdriven.

The rising edge of the peak is rounded but the falling edge bows inward and drops sharply. The mirror of it appears at the bottom of the waveform.

Does anyone know if this type of distortion is correct, or could look to see?

[IMG:444:180]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj30 ... waveHF.jpg[/img]

[bluesfendermanblues]

Can anyone tell me whether what I am observing in my amp, by way of wave form distortion in the OD stage, is correct.

When I listen to Scott's tone, he seems to get high sustain (and all the desirable dumble qualities) in a tone that is relatively clean sounding.

The only way I can get any similar sustain and syrupy lushness comes at the price of a more 'distorted' sounding tone.

A while back I posted an example of the waveform distortion (of a sine wave) that I see in the OD section when overdriven.

The rising edge of the peak is rounded but the falling edge bows inward and drops sharply. The mirror of it appears at the bottom of the waveform.

Does anyone know if this type of distortion is correct, or could look to see?

I'm skeptical towards using a scope in order to determin, what sounds good and what not. IMLE a scope is best used for trouble hunting, such as finding parasistic oscillation.

Regarding Scotts tone and his latest amp, the Bludotone OJAI, he said in a recent post, that setting of the tone controls was an important ingrediens in getting a good tone. I think he's setting his controls with the treble pretty low around 3, middle and bass pretty high on 7. Input volume pretty high, input trimmer on 25k, gain control around 4.

With those settings on my #124 and HRM clones + a 12G65 equipped cabinet, I get in the same tonal ballpark - even with a strat.

However, Scott will probably chime in and give some piece of advise.

[LPSGME]

I wasn't suggesting using a scope to tweak the sound. I'm just trying to ascertain the how a sine wave normally looks when clipped in the OD section - because I can't seem to get anywhere near the round clean tone with dumble-ish sustain and drive that Scott gets.

UPDATE; Before removing the HRM, I put a cap [for treble bleed] after V2a rather than V2b. The cap now appears to deliver the rounder sound I seek, when placed after V2b.

[jelle]

Even with HRM you can get that nice round tone. Did you hear the clips of the Welagen black suede HRM?

I'm thinking something else is happening why you are not getting there. First of all, Scotts volume is not very low. There's poweramp saturation happening too in his sounds.

[dogears]

Huh?? Speak up, I can barely hear you.....

Even with HRM you can get that nice round tone. Did you hear the clips of the Welagen black suede HRM?

I'm thinking something else is happening why you are not getting there. First of all, Scotts volume is not very low. There's poweramp saturation happening too in his sounds.

[BobW]

Can anyone tell me whether what I am observing in my amp, by way of wave form distortion in the OD stage, is correct.

When I listen to Scott's tone, he seems to get high sustain (and all the desirable dumble qualities) in a tone that is relatively clean sounding.

The only way I can get any similar sustain and syrupy lushness comes at the price of a more 'distorted' sounding tone.

A while back I posted an example of the waveform distortion (of a sine wave) that I see in the OD section when overdriven.

The rising edge of the peak is rounded but the falling edge bows inward and drops sharply. The mirror of it appears at the bottom of the waveform.

Does anyone know if this type of distortion is correct, or could look to see?

I'm skeptical towards using a scope in order to determin, what sounds good and what not. IMLE a scope is best used for trouble hunting, such as finding parasistic oscillation.

Agree. If you use test equipment to correlate tonal qualities, a spectrum analyzer would be a better choice.

Per Scott's suggestion, many moons ago, I found the tone in my ODS 50W (in a donor bassman chassis) has more clarity when the Volume is set to no more than 9 o clock (7 is off) anything more just adds more breakup and less singing sustain.

[LPSGME]

Even with HRM you can get that nice round tone. Did you hear the clips of the Welagen black suede HRM?

I'm thinking something else is happening why you are not getting there. First of all, Scotts volume is not very low. There's poweramp saturation happening too in his sounds.

Yes, I see your HRM is very capable of a similarly nice clean round sustain etc.

I think part of my amp's problem is also that the notes don't seem to want to push out into a volume swell nearly as much as I hear other amps do.

I hear absolutely no difference as I adjust the PI balance.

[Structo]

It took me a while to figure out the PI balance thing.

What I do is use a single coil guitar like a strat, switch it to neck pickup then turn the amp up quite loud on the clean channel.

Then I lightly brush the strings in an open G or A chord and listen to the bloom.
Make small adjustments and repeat with the brushing of the strings.
Remember it takes a second or two for the adjustment to "take" due to the caps on the PI.
Kind of a delayed reaction.

If you can't dial in that bloom into harmonics, try another tube.
I had to go through a few before I found "the one".

On my amp I am using 110K and 120K PI plate resistors with a 10K trimmer.

Keep trying, you'll get it.

[Bob-I]

I still can't get this amp to really bloom. I'm beginning to think it's the OT since I've changed everything else.

[LPSGME]

Eureka!

- Clean and distorted sustained tone;
- Feedback
- Bloom; and even that
- Burp (is that what is called Chirp?).

Who'd have thought that doing everything exactly as prescribed - well almost as prescribed (see below) - would work?

This is what made the difference.

1) I still had a 1Meg pot as a RATIO - as that is what the HRM had.

Thanks to Tony telling me (in another thread) to change it to 100K, I did - although all I had was a linear taper.

2) I then added a 'treble bleed' with a 500 meg pot.

Things started to get much better, but it seemed a bit loud.

3) I noticed that I only had a 100K (rather than 150K) resistor before the Ratio (OD out Level) - so I added a 47K to the front end of the 100K.

It's good that I did that (rather than find a single 150K) because...:
I felt that the tonal change from the 'Treble Bleed' was a bit mid-range and hollow sounding.

So for the heck of it I connected the 'treble bleed' to the juncture of the 47k/100k resistors that comprised the 150k (pre Ratio).

The tone seemed to get much nicer, less hollow - and the guitar (a Les Paul) started to feedback and even had that distinctive burp sound.

I could have just been hearing things. As I didn't have a chance to double check the difference between connecting the 'treble bleed' to the juncture of 47k/100k in series resistors vs. just adding it after the 150K value - but I moved it for the very reason of not liking the tone and heard an immediate improvement.

Unfortunately I had to drop what I was doing to attend to something else so I wasn't able to evaluate the changes. But as the guitar kept feedbacking on several notes, and was even 'burping' I knew things were much better.

Again, is what I am calling a burp what other refer to as 'chirp'?

[LPSGME]

I still can't get this amp to really bloom. I'm beginning to think it's the OT since I've changed everything else.

Is this your own build or a Ceriatone (like mine).

I knew just from listening to all the sound clips clips that the Ceriatone OT had less body than some other OTs.

However, in my case, changing the OT made no difference with respect to Bloom or Feedback - as my amp had other issues.

But changing to Heyboer's Fender model definitely added more solid body to the tone than I got from the stock Ceriatone OT.