Mechanical Hum

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paulster
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by paulster »

loupy31 wrote:Hi Guys,
I followed the info Richie and RJ have given me and sure enough the mechanical hum is still there. RJ is currently organizing a new PT for me. I will keep you guys informed when I install the new PT and double check the other components, If anyone has any more advice , please let me know.

Regards Peter
If it's mechanical, i.e. it hums with no speaker connected (and no tubes in when you try this) then you may have a defective transformer.

If it's audible hum through magnetic coupling then you'll likely find the next one just the same. Ken chose a pretty poor orientation/proximity for placing the transformers, especially considering the flux density that the PT generates. Really, the OT should be to the side of the PT rather than behind it for the orientation that they're in, or keeping their positions both transformers should be rotated by 90 degrees to minimise the coupling.

You could find that moving the PT and OT by the couple of millimetres they have on their mounting flanges will help it.
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RJ Guitars
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by RJ Guitars »

Here is the note that Phil from Heyboer sent me. Seems like good general info so I thought I'd pass it along.

...that 5199EX should have a humm band on it. i know its kind of paradoxical , but that humm band may be the humm or buzz he is hearing. its may need some slack taken up along the top or underside of the laminatons. if there is a little space , have him push some silicon or rubber caulk under the band between the steel and copper, or even a little shim of about anything to take up the space and tighten the gaps. i just say rubber or silicon as that works best and can ooz and spread out under the copper band a little. to test just push on the band, both bottom and top while its buzzing to see if thats it and then let me know. if thats not it then it may be a loose lamination plate or keeper... thanks, Phil
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Richie
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Re: PT hum

Post by Richie »

2tone wrote:some low level hum can be present in Power transformers. I have a few amps with this, including 2 Trainwrecks. No problem for me, it's not that loud and has never altered the sound...
Yes, most will have some little noise,but very slight. Some of those you can do some things to keep the chassis from having the vibrations.
You know the wood dowel thing Ken used ,most think it is to add support so the chassis doesn't bend,on those thin Bud chassis, but it can also dampen any vibration noises too, from the transformers 'normal' vibrations, or tubes picking up vibrations.
You can even somewhat try this,just by pressing down or lifting on your chassis in different places,it can take some of the noises of vibration away.

But the ones that sound like those old vibrating electric football games back in the 60s, are the ones you won't be able to do anything with..

that is good info Phil suggested. :)
marcoloco961
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by marcoloco961 »

loupy31 wrote:Hi Guys,
I followed the info Richie and RJ have given me and sure enough the mechanical hum is still there. RJ is currently organizing a new PT for me. I will keep you guys informed when I install the new PT and double check the other components, If anyone has any more advice , please let me know.

Regards Peter
I have been looking for the old thread that discussed a problem like this and can't seem to locate it. Basically the OP had the same issue with out tubes nor an input. Someone suggested a quick test to see if it was caused by the placement of the transformers in relation to each other.

First, take the OT loose from the chassis so it can be moved around. Then you hook a pair of headphones to the OT ground and one of the secondary taps (I beleive he suggests the 4 ohm tap, but you can hear the hum on any of the 3 outs). Unhook and insulate your PT secondaries and apply AC to the PT primaries. You will be able to hear an audible hum. Move the OT from side to side to see if you can eliminate the hum. I tried it before mounting the two transformers and the layout I was getting ready to use was very noisy. I only had to move the OT a small distance to almost completely eliminate the hum. A 1/4" made a huge difference in the volume. You might try this before paying shipping costs to switch trannys.
paulster
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by paulster »

loupy31
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by loupy31 »

Hi RJ,
I just tried what Phil suggested, But unfortunatly no change

Peter


RJ Guitars wrote:Here is the note that Phil from Heyboer sent me. Seems like good general info so I thought I'd pass it along.

...that 5199EX should have a humm band on it. i know its kind of paradoxical , but that humm band may be the humm or buzz he is hearing. its may need some slack taken up along the top or underside of the laminatons. if there is a little space , have him push some silicon or rubber caulk under the band between the steel and copper, or even a little shim of about anything to take up the space and tighten the gaps. i just say rubber or silicon as that works best and can ooz and spread out under the copper band a little. to test just push on the band, both bottom and top while its buzzing to see if thats it and then let me know. if thats not it then it may be a loose lamination plate or keeper... thanks, Phil
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RJ Guitars
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by RJ Guitars »

Is it possible that we are talking about two different forms of hum here?

In one case it is the mechanical vibration which I am not sure you would hear in a set of headphones and in the other case it I would say we are talking about electrical hum which does come through in the headphones.

I throw this out as a set of comments (not facts) because I am not entirely sure that the two are separate, but it seems intuitively that they are.

rj
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RJ Guitars
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by RJ Guitars »

loupy31 wrote:Hi RJ,
I just tried what Phil suggested, But unfortunatly no change Peter
It isn't your responsibility as a consumer to sort this out if it is indeed a tranny gone south (in this case even further south than the land down under). In that event we'll get you a replacement tranny ASAP - that is already in the works.

However, if you don't mind the interruption in your build schedule we are all learning something interesting about tranny behavior. All these little tricks and potential explanations should make us a smarter bunch for the future. This does not seem to be anything particularly common but if we see it again we'll know a few things to look for.

rj
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Richie
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by Richie »

The things being discussed are 2 seperate type problems. The Vibrating hum if bad enough, can be heard without headphones. The PT will vibrate or make a buzz type sound. Most PTs will have a very slight same type thing happening, but its normal. Its the PT that is excessive that is the problem. And pretty sure some od the PTs don't even have a hum band.

Some PTs you may not feel,hear or notice anything,some very slight,which is normal. Its when you get one that is just way too much,that it vibrates the chassis,and can be picked up and heard through the amp,which makes it even worse.

The other type they are talking about is a hum, because of the placement of the transformers or fields interacting. And the headphone test in comparison, would be if you had a strat and single coil pickups, you can turn a different angle and the hum gets worse or is less. Thats what you do with the transformer,you turn it till you hear the least hum or no hum at all.

So 2 different things here. Back in about 68 Marshall turned their output transformer, one of the ways to tell if its a stock amp, which way the bells are facing.

Since we are on the subject, i answered another question on another forum a few minutes ago. They had a buzzy recto tube. Even made a clip of it. I was suprised to see many pople have all kinds of different answers,some from people that were tube guys.
I would have thought that they should have seen this many times over. Or to me it seems a common thing. Some recto tubes will have a slight mecanical rattle or buzz, nothing wrong with them other than having the annoying buzz.
This too can be picked up,and heard through the amp. Most all of these tubes that do this, you can place your wood dowel on the top of the tube, or your finger [just don't get burned] and the noise will stop. Like loose parts inside the tube.
Even a tube dampener can sometimes cure the noise. The tube may be fine other than the noise,and never have a problem.
Seems as some tubes wear, they get very rattley or noisey,even power tubes can make low rumbles,and be microphonic. And even some NEW tubes can be the same. I have heard the noise from about every recto tube type that is used in amps. NOS to whatever.
But its always nice to have one that doesn't make the buzz rattly noise.. :D

Just saying, sometimes you have to figure out where and what the noise is,and what and where its coming from or causing it.
And a lost note, sometimes a noisey or vibrating PT, you can mount the PT on rubber gasket, or rubber washers, it can help keep down the vibrations getting picked up on the chassis,than a PT that is mounted solid on the chassis.
marcoloco961
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by marcoloco961 »

Sorry to switch topics here but I just had an idea (doesn't happen that often) :lol:

How about a troubleshooting section on the forum? With different issues and all replies addressing these issues. (i.e.) problems with hum...Then all the different posts about hum in that section. Seems that the same issues are hashed out many times over when a quick search fails to produce answers. Just a thought.....Again, sorry to switch topics.
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Structo
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by Structo »

I have a Heyboer 8816EX PT in my D'lite.

It has the copper flux bands, which I always thought were to keep the magnetic flux at a minimum or a tighter pattern.

Anyway, it buzzes just a bit when I power on before I throw the standby.

But I don't hear it once the amp is fully powered up.

I tried pushing on the copper band but it is behind the power tubes so it isn't real possible to push hard.
It didn't change anything when I did that.
Tom

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Gibsonman63
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by Gibsonman63 »

Straying from the subject a little...

Do you guys think it is possible that KF preferred the thinner chassis in order to dampen some of this vibration? My Express clone is the only amp I own with an aluminium chassis and the chassis seems a bit microphonic if you tap on it, but doesn't give me any problem for normal playing. All in all, I think I prefer the thicker chassis to having to brace everything.
WhopperPlate
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by WhopperPlate »

Gibsonman63 wrote:Do you guys think it is possible that KF preferred the thinner chassis in order to dampen some of this vibration?
I think the thinner aluminum would contribute more towards chassis vibration than the thicker. I actually think he possibly preferred the thinner stuff for this very reason. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by Cliff Schecht »

I would venture to guess he liked the thinner chassis because they were relatively inexpensive and easy to work with. I prefer the thinner aluminum myself for builds not necessarily for price reasons but because it's much easier to drill the large holes for tube sockets and such yourself. He used Bud chassis right? I find their stuff to be high quality generally and not overpriced.
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PlinytheWelder
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Re: Mechanical Hum

Post by PlinytheWelder »

If you want to get really weird, DC offset on the mains (primary) can cause a tranny to hum....
Gary
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