Ceriatone Trainwreck Clones

[proguitarist]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum. As a matter of fact this is the first forum I've ever signed up for. You guys really know your stuff, so I'm very excited to start learning from your experience and knowlege.

I am a professional guitar player living presently in Nashville TN.

I've had great experience with Nik at Ceriatone and rate his company an A++ consistantly.

I've listened to every YouTube click there is and checked every link on Ceriatone.com to listen and decide on a Trainwreck clone style that suits me. I think I'm deciding on either an Express or Rock It. I like the simplicity of the express but the versitility of the Rock it, from what i've read and heard online anyway as I've NEVER seen one of these.

What I'm interetsted in asking you is a few questions.

1) What is the Wattage of the two amps? I've never owned an amp with EL 34's so I don't know their wattage respectively. The rocket, from a laymans perspective looks a lot like my Ceriatone DC30 clone with respect to it having (4) EL84's and a GZ34 tub in the recitfier circuit which would lead me to believe it's over 35 watts.

2)Based on your experience, what is the difference tonaly from the two amps? Is one more low endy or woofy than the other? I play country/rock professionally so I have a certain tone I gravitate towards. I play a DC30(ceriatone) and a 1965 Bassman with the AA165 circuit. I was thinking of buying a Reinhardt for a while cause I love those amps, but then I found this. I'm also interested what happens to the tonality and wattage when you drop to the 2 6V6 tubes. wattage, volume, etc.

3) Has anyone directly compared a Ceriatone to a real Trainwreck ever?
I did this with a 2001 Matchless DC 30 and with the Ceriatone, I think I'm gonna do it again, except film it this time and show you guys how strikingly the same they sound. The only differences I noticed is in the Channel 2 with the Tone knob. where the Matchless was at 12 oclock, in order to get that same tone on the Ceriatone, you would be at like 9 oclock. no biggie though, unless you guys know this already, then maybe you could explain that too.

4) Finally, what's been your experience with Master Volumes, I know Ken hated them and I kinda feel the same way, BUT there would be times, ,like at my house that I don't wanna have to crank it so damn loud.
What's the best attenuator that doesn't mess up your tubes and transformers, that you would recommend? Can one be put in or on the amp? Can a master volume be put in, but a bypass switch added that COMPLETELY bypassed the master volume circuit?


Thanks again for reading and if you feel so inclined, thanks double thanks to you for tanking on the daunting task of my loaded question. Look forward to hearing from you guys very soon on this.

Take Care-

-Shaun

[strat_addict]

I can tell you that based on stuff that people around here say that the transformers that Nik uses aren't top notch.
As for attenuators go, I'll recommend this one: http://www.drzamps.com/airbrake.html
Dr. Z and Ken designed it together so it should work well

[M Fowler]

Niks DC30 uses:
285-0-285V 200mA; 3.15-0-3.15V 5A; 5-0V 4A PT
OT is 4K,175mA 16,8,4 ohm EI96 40 Z11/H14
The choke is 150mA, 10H

The Rocket which by the way is good for country/rock in my experience
PT is 260-0-260 HTS 5199 35W
OT is dynaclone A-470-S 4k3 35W or the Heyboer clone.
The Hammond choke is 15H 75mA, 411 ohms

The voltage is down from your DC30 but the rocket is a great amplifier.

The Express uses 300-0-300v SS rectifier said to be 35w amp but sounds more like 50W running the EL34s and can run 6V6 with bias adjust. The OT can run several ways 5k2 or 6K6. Nik's Express sounds different from my Express in that it is brighter sounding and louder. The Express is already loud to begin with.

If your looking for less gain in your amps try the Liverpool 4 EL84 cathode bias SS rectifier. 35w or the Rocket.

[dartanion]

Shaun,

The Express is about 35W, and had loads of gain on tap to take you from nice clean tones to ripping lead tones at the turn of your guitar's volume knob. These amps are finicky and a challenge to tube correctly, so be advised that you will need to weed through lots of tubes to get a set that will work.

The Rocket is about 30W, and stays quite clean even when cranked up. It's very versatile and not so choosey about tubes. It also is a dream amp for using pedals. It is also relatively similar to a DC30 on the 12AX7 side, so basically like an AC30, but only the 12AX7 channel.

Nik is a good guy and does make a nice product to hit a price point. The transformers are the weakest link, but if you are going to build the amp yourself, order it without transformers and without tubes. There are many different transformer sets that would be recommended, with Heyboer and Pacific being most favored.

Skip the master volume and use your attenuator of choice, or better yet, get one of Dana's VVR kits.

As well, Bob Reinhardt makes killer amps, and I believe his Wreck style amp is called the Jester, but don't quote me on that.

Since you already have a DC30, that should cover the Rocket territory, so maybe an Express or Liverpool might suit your needs. Although, I prefer a Rocket to a full on AC30 or DC30, but that's just me.

[Structo]

The only differences I noticed is in the Channel 2 with the Tone knob. where the Matchless was at 12 oclock, in order to get that same tone on the Ceriatone, you would be at like 9 oclock. no biggie though, unless you guys know this already, then maybe you could explain that too.

I'll venture to say that the taper may be different between the two.
One may be an audio taper while the other a linear taper.

Also, older audio taper pots were closer to a 30% taper while more modern audio pots are around 15% so that would change where the knob sits for the same tone.

Or they may have completely different tone stacks or values in capacitors which would also affect where the knobs are set for the same tone you are hearing.

As for attenuators, have you heard about the VVR scaling mod?

UR12 here, (Dana Hall) makes these small circuits that varies the voltage to the amp.
You can scale the whole amp or just the power amp depending how it works for you.
He has one for cathode biased and one for fixed bias.

http://www.hallamplification.com/main.html?src=%2F#2,2

[rooster]

proguitarist - Interesting post.

That Ceriatone clone has a MV, right? Well, did I hear you say you didn't like it in that amp? The thing is, if you are going to use a MV, that style amp, Class A, is probably going to sound better with a MV than a Class AB amp. I dare say Matchless and Bad Cat sell a lot of amps because of the MV in their Class A amps.

As to the Airbrake or other types of attenuators, you may not like even a *good* one. Try one before you buy. And YES, the Express is a totally loud amp that some here have managed to control. Glen probably does it best with a 40" cord and a fantastic 4/12 cab that might cost you $1600 if you found one.

As to the sound of the Rocket vs. the Express, knowing you you have that Bassman, I would say that the Express sits somewhere between the DC and the Bassman, sure. The express can really sing if you turn it up, but it will never have the 'grind' that a Class A EL84 quad equipped amp will have. No way. The Express has a unique voice, easily more midrange than the Bassman. If you had a really good Tubescreamer, set the 'distortion' to 2 o'clock and put the 'gain' at 12 o'clock, and plugged it into your Bassman that you had turned to 1 o'clock - HA! - this might be like the Express at maybe 12 oclock. ....But still, the Express - minus the pedal - would be louder.

Hard to explain. The feel is good when the Express is working right, better than your bassman, but the midrange will just make your guitar sing, something the Bassman will never do stock. Eh, so then the downside should be plain: when you hear it like it should be, 12 o'clock-ish, you realize you can't really get that sound at 9 o'clock without a pedal - BUT - BUT - be warned, at 9 o'clock it is still pretty loud!

OK, that's my shareware. Good luck on your path.

[geetarpicker]

Truly a good part of the magic with an Express is pushing the output stage and getting the power supply to sag when you get into overdrive. That helps make the clean to mean range more even, volume wise. The power supply sags when you dig in to the dirt reducing volume. Then when you back your guitar down the power supply voltages raise up and the clean seems to be more dynamic and louder ala more even than most amps folks are used to. You will loose the power supply sag and the even volume aspect with a master, as your power supply won't be pulled hard enough to sag much if at all it will simply stay more even and the clean tones will seem weak compared to the dirty. Some have reported that with a VVR you may retain this much better than a master though I've never tried it. Perhaps it allow some voltage sag to occur like when it's cranked, I'm not sure. That said I use a nice attenuator. Also I think the wreck really needs a 4x12 to have a full enough bottom. If you mic the rig you can compensate for a smaller cab from the PA with board EQ but your stage tone may be marginal compared to a nice 4x12. 6V6s will still be pretty loud barely different than EL34s just not as full. Also the Express doesn't work with pedals all that well, but the Rocket does. IMHO the Express is a KILLER rock amp for plugging straight in and going for it. The Rocket however fits what most folks do these days (pedals galore) especially here in Music City. That said I sometime retube my Express with 12au7s and 12ay7s to dumb the gain way down, grab my pedal board & wireless, and go play a country gig.

GK

[Cliff Schecht]

I disagree that the Express doesn't take pedals well! Not that I'm one to bastardize the sound of such an amp but I typically use a homemade wah, a homemade Orange Squeezer, a modified Blues Driver (set as a transparent boost), a homemade Boss CE-2 chorus/BBD delay (both in one case) in front of the amp with great results. I can play an entire set with just a Tele and the Express but it's nice to have some extra "flavor" at your feet for when the occasion is right.

[geetarpicker]

I recently used a wah with my Express in the studio and got some cool sounds! That said it was a heavy rock tune tune and I couldn't stop playing for the noise that would have been prominent, but that was ok. If you run an Express in typical high gain mode (all 12ax7s volume on 1/2 or a little more) most pedals will be quite noisy when you kick them in. The issue isn't so much tone but the noise added. However I guess if you really backed an Express or Liverpool way down (and skipped the bright switch) you wouldn't get much extra noise, or used lower gain tubes. A wet/dry rig is a very cool option with a Wreck, then the effects are post amplifier and don't add noise at all. Still that only works for certain effects like Reverb, Delay, and Chorus. I guess I shouldn't say pedals don't work well with an Express, it's just such a high gain beast that it brings out any noise issue in the pedals that might not be nearly as apparent in other rigs. It's not like it's a channel switcher that you can turn off the gain channel to use a chorus. I guess as the saying goes YMMV.

[proguitarist]

I've read a lot of people endorsing the heyboyer trAnsformer. Is there anyone out here that has done a comparison to mercury magnetics trannies? Also, what about comparing either of the above to the stock ceriatone transformers. Thx for the info everyone.

[lions den]

If you're going to go mainstream on attenuators I would check out Ho Electronics. He originally designed the Ultimate Attenuator and still makes them to customer requests and quite a bit cheaper than the UA's. He's in Vancouver, doesn't do email, need to call him. Sounds great and let's the Express breathe

www.hoelectronics.com

[mumford]

I've read a lot of people endorsing the heyboyer trAnsformer. . . . Also, what about comparing either of the above to the stock ceriatone transformers.

I just got to play mine with a drummer for a couple of hours this weekend after replacing the stock ceriatone OT with a heyboer, the ceriatone caps with sozos, and redoing a lot of the wiring. I can't really say which change affected what, so YMMV. I have to note that sozos aren't the normal replacement here. Also, I am still using whatever tubes I had lying around (EL34s).

Stock Ceriatone (my build): incredibly loud, lots of gain, but got real mushy at or above 12. Really barky, tons of attack. Cleaned up with the volume knob. Tons of noise, but that was my bad wiring.

Modified: drastically quieter--still loud enough to gig no problem, but not the "I'm scared of it" loud I had before. No mush whatsoever, very tight handling, extremely clear, even distorted. A lot more of a bright marshall sound. Cleaned up with the volume, but the guitar I was using really needs a volume kit, so I can't comment on the cleans really.

Vast improvement over stock, although Like I said, I can't really say what did what. The transformer definitely caused the volume change.

[CaseyJones]

I've read a lot of people endorsing the heyboyer trAnsformer. Is there anyone out here that has done a comparison to mercury magnetics trannies? Also, what about comparing either of the above to the stock ceriatone transformers. Thx for the info everyone.

Heyboer kills MM. Eats them for lunch and uses their bones for toothpicks.

Stock Ceriatone iron? They suck. End of story.

I just demo'ed a Liverpool to a hardcore metal guy. Funny you mention the SG, that's exactly what this guy had. Liverpool plugged into, get this, a Peavey 12" Black Widow. Dude asked me, "WTF is this thing?! It kills!" Then Glen does his Glen thing through his. Bottom line: Plug into a 'Wreck and it sounds like you. Too bad so sad if you ain't got the chops, if you aint got the chops it's like havin' the followspot shinin' straight down on your sorry carcass and there's no place to hide. If you do have the chops it's like the Voice of God.

Word to the Wise: Buy American, The Job You Save Might Be Your Own. Allyn's chassis, Moose/Toneslut iron, Dave what's-his-face turretboards. Otherwise you're buying a copy of a copy assembled as piecework by 13 year old girls.

[M Fowler]

Dave what's-his-face turretboards

Joebob build boards of many different types.

[CaseyJones]

Dave what's-his-face turretboards

Joebob build boards of many different types.

Yeah! Yeah! That's the guy!

Plan "B": Tap Dynaman up in Michigan to build you one of his. Looks like a toolbox, sounds like a 'Wreck. Less expensive than the imports and you stimulate Michigan's devastated economy. Win / win.