Newbie with Ceriatone HRM looking for R Ford style sag/comp

[cdc3jj]

I found this forum through the Ceriatone site. I got one of Nik's HRM Bluesmaster amps a while back (built by Nik), used it on some gigs and a short tour and it is a great amp, but I'm not finding the Ford/Carlton/Mayer tones I was hoping for.

Running pedals in front sounds ok, very fenderish to me. I have a Kleinulator and it helps the OD channel some. I tried the pedals in the loop but it's still kind of weak. And I can't really find any setting with the send/return levels that I'm happy with. I don't know how that thing works really.

Anyways, I'm looking for some mods that will help both channels. I really like the cleans on two rocks and I like Ford's OD sound. Also dig Bogner's Duende. It seems to get that same sort of sag/squish sound dumble's get, albeit brighter. I've tweeked the internal eq pots but no luck.... (btw, I know a lot of tone is in the players touch. I'm working on that, just trying to get in the ballpark amp wise)

Also, what is the fourth trim pot inside of the amp for? It sits closer to the back panel turned perpendicular to the eq trimers.

I've built a couple amps and done some mods so I'm comfortable with a soldering iron as well as layouts. Just starting to understand schematics. If anyone could suggest some changes to find the two-rock-ish sound and that Robben Ford tone I'd appreciate it. Also if there are some general education threads here about tweeking the controls on the BM I'd love to read them. I know it's a really interactive amp. I'll do some searching. Thanks

I've got another thread going here: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-central- ... earch.html

[gilgalad101]

For the sag, you could try replacing the choke with a 10W resistor a la the "Robben Ford mod." This schematic shows an example of the standby switch being used to switch between the choke and resistor. Looking at the layout on Ceriatone's site, I'd say the fourth trimmer is the phase inverter trimmer. Being somewhat of a noobie myself, I can't really comment on adjusting it.

[erwin_ve]

If you use search function with the keyword"bluesmaster" you can get some nice sounding clips with tweakers tips.

[cdc3jj]

Cool, I'll check out the search function. Thanks for the tip on the Robben Ford Mod. I'll try that next time I have the chassis out.

I posted this at tdpri, but hopefully more eyes will see it here too. Just for sheets and giggles I spent my Sunday night randomly surfing around looking for Dumble orriented web material. I must say some of it is pretty hilarious. I found a lot more to laugh at than to enlighten me.

However, (and this might be old news to some of you) there's a lot of talk about the tone stack. If I understand right, alex (as he prefers) figured a way to really juice the stack. I'm not sure if that's why this style of amp is so touch sensitive and interactive or not, but it's food for thought.

Also there's a fair bit about how the gain stages work together. I'm pretty novice on that concept so it will take more digging.

Then there's this whole business about "bloom" which might be what I kept calling sag (rookie mistake). I remember the first time I really heard an amp bloom it was my DRRI I had modded and have since traded off for my ac15 (no regrets). It was a slow, soft bloom. It sounds like this style of amp has a fast bloom. I think that's what I hear in the two rocks I like and the Bogner. It sounds almost like compression because the notes bloom so fast, like having the attack turned down on a comp pedal.

So, having said all that, what kind of mods (if any) are there to really goose the tone stack? And is there a way to boost the bloom factor? Thanks...

Just for fun I made a list of the links I hit. It's a works.doc and doesn't want to upload, so I'll just paste it here. You guys have probably seen some of this before but here goes:

http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=739.0

LOVE the Eric Johnson story…
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archiv ... 57838.html

http://thaddeushogarth.berkleemusicblog ... er-dumble/

http://akamai.www.berkleemusic.com/asse ... dumble.pdf

Funny lady’s robben Ford page:
http://www.elizabethgage.com/gagepage/index.html

Great Santana quote, under the “When you recorded Shaman, you were over the moon about discovering Dumble amplifiers” heading:
http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/car ... ay-05/8870

Interview from 1985 Guitar Player:
http://forums.birdsandmoons.com/forum/s ... hp?t=24532

Book, 149,99 EU:
http://www.dumblebook.com/

HAD’s response to the books author, PRICLESS:
http://www.curledup.com/dumblebk.htm

Random schematics:
http://www.schematicheaven.com/dumble.htm

Gear Page post of a Michael Landau quote: (can’t find any clips of Landau playing a Dumble)
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=602245

HC bickering…
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/arc ... 87362.html

Tdpri Wardpike thread:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/inde ... 69118.html

Boogie guy interview, Dumble crap in last paragraph:
http://www.mesaboogie.com/Reviews/ToneQ ... erview.htm

Dude playing an ODS that sounds nothing like Ford or Carlton:
http://www.geardump.com/?p=57
http://www.forumeter.com/video/181233/D ... kki-Custom

SRV interview comments about Dumble:
http://www.modernguitars.com/archives/002283.html

Carlton showers some praise on Dumble:
http://www.b-band.com/index.php?page=larry-carlton

[erwin_ve]

One thing that helps: get the grid, cathode and plate wires away from the heater wires. It's killing tone in a Ceriatone.

[cdc3jj]

Ok... So (dumb newbie question alert) which one's are the heaters? Are they coming from the PT? Which pin do they go to? I think it's pin 7 by the layout.

Also, can 6v6's sub for the 6l6's? How would that effect the sound? I've always used 6v6 amps.

[boldaslove6789]

Darn I wanted to read the eric johnson link and they don't work

[cdc3jj]

Oops... Links should be working now.

[boldaslove6789]

Thanks........I needed some late night reading material

[erwin_ve]

Ok... So (dumb newbie question alert) which one's are the heaters? Are they coming from the PT? Which pin do they go to? I think it's pin 7 by the layout.

Also, can 6v6's sub for the 6l6's? How would that effect the sound? I've always used 6v6 amps.

Look for socketconnection in this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12AX7 this hopefully will help. Make sure your amp is off!

6v6: you need a other OT.
Also do 1 step each time and make sure you got your basic electronics knowledge. Otherwise you'll end up dead or your amp will.

[gilgalad101]

The heater wires are the twisted wires over the tube sockets that come from the PT.

[cdc3jj]

I did the ford mod. Should be able to crank the amp a little tomorrow night and see how it sounds. I switched speakers around and settled on a g12-100. Starting to really like the cleans. It's starting to bloom a little more.

I'm still not thrilled with the OD side. I'd like to smooth it out and soften it up. It's kind of harsh to my ears. Is there anything I can do for that? I had a suggestion to change the V2 to a 12ay7. Are there any componet swaps that might help? Thanks

[bluesfendermanblues]

Are there any componet swaps that might help? Thanks

Setting the OD trimmer low is a good place to start. Try it around 9 O'clock and see what you think.

If you amp is brand new, it need 50-100 hours of playing time, before you start any tweaks (setting the trimmer not included).

[Structo]

Wrong move on replacing the choke with a resistor IMHO.

I recently installed a choke and prefer it over the resistor.
Matter of taste I suppose but Robben's amp has a choke now.

Also if you changed to the resistor, you do understand that can change the voltage to the preamp tubes right?

As far as copping Robben's tone, you have to realize how important technique and phrasing is when playing an amp.
Essentially it is 90% hands and technique.

Also, Robben doesn't play a Bluesmaster, which has some pretty large differences over an ODS amp.

IMO, the D amps have the best overdrive I have ever played through so adding dirt pedals to me is not the way to go.
I can see using a fuzz or other type that has a different characteristic but for a smooth overdrive you cannot beat the stock OD channel.

Just fine tune the OD trimmer inside. If you have one of the later amps the OD gain control may be on the back panel.
Adjust it to 20-35K, wiper to ground and try that.
If the OD gain is not on the back panel many of us relocate the Trimmer onto the back panel using a full size pot so it can be adjusted on the fly.
Use shielded cable for that.

For bloom, the trimmer on the phase inverter plate resistors is how you adjust that.
I assume you know how to work inside an amp and the precautions to take around high voltage.
You do know how to discharge the filter caps right?
The D amps do bleed down rather quickly due to the balancing resistors on the first two filter caps.
But always measure for voltage on the filter caps before doing any work inside.

To adjust the PI trimmer, use a single coil guitar (neck pup) and turn the amp up in clean mode.
Lightly brush the open strings and adjust the trimmer very slowly.
It takes a second or two for the amp to respond so take it slow.
What you are looking for is for is the most overtones and having it want to bloom into harmonics at the right setting.
This will take some experimentation.
In the end the side with the lower plate resistor should probably be around 5-6v higher than the other side.

As far as the loop, I recently built a Dumbleator and now I have a complete package with my amp.
This device is essential for good tone and as an effects loop it really works well.
I put any time based effects in the loop. Reverb, delay, chorus, Leslie Sim., etc.
Then adjust the controls for no compression on up to overdriving the amp if need be for the tone I am after for the moment.
So you may consider building a D'Lator or buying one from somebody.
The Kleinulator does a decent job by most accounts but it is still solid state.
Did you download the instruction manual for the loop from Ceria?

[cdc3jj]

Cool... That's a lot of good info. I didn't realize the origilnal d-lators were tube based. Is there a way to mod the klein from ceriatone? I'll start digging around for a layout online.

I didn't really know how to adjust the PI pot, so I'll give that a shot. I have been just setting it randomly. I had no idea it was so sensitive.

My OD trimmer is on the back. I had been running it between 9-11 to keep the distortion cut back some. It sounds like distortion more than overdrive to me. I'm going to try a 12ay7 and see if that helps.

Thanks for the tip on the choke vs resistor. I'll probably try it both ways once I get the OD smoothed out a bit and see. Doesn't the choke increase headroom?

And we're on the same page on pedals. There's nothing I'd like better than an amp that lets me take the OD pedals off my board. That's been my dream for years. Thanks for the help