Express and speakers.....effects too?

[redshark]

I think after reading lots and lots of threads about this topic the general opinion is that express clones or originals sound better with 4x12 closed back cabinet with pre rola 25 watt celestion or clones.
But what happens when that cabinet is too much? The challenge is to find a speaker that is dark and inefficient to compensate for the brightness and loudness of the express.
Please tell me what speakers with this characteristics had workout for you in a 1x12 and 2x12 format that are not too loud and not too bright please.
Any experience with weber silver bells? I know those ones are not too loud and have the reputation to be a warm speaker.

Please tell me about your experiences. Also what effects in your opinion work better fronting the express?
Thanks for your comments!!!

[dartanion]

For the purest, only a 412 loaded with old greenbacks is the only solution. In reality, chose whatever combination trips your trigger. I have used tons of different speakers and cab configurations and found that I liked the Fane AXA AlNiCo the best in both open and closed back, however prefer a 212 or 412 closed back with these speakers. I liked them enough that I was able to pickup the North American distributorship for Fane's guitar line. We now have more than just the AXA, and I have a couple other favorites out this line as well.

Again, I don't want to toot my own horn here, but speakers and cab choices are as subjective as anything else guitar related. The low end punch and expanded sound stage on the Fanes really stands out when compared to other speakers. Not that others have "bad" tone, it's just different and pleasing.

Effects? I would not recommend using any type of boost or distortion box in front if you are running at any significant volume. This can lead to wild oscillations, but not always. Chorus, Flange, Delay, Wah, etc. all work pretty well.

My best advice would be to experiment and find what YOU like best and what works for YOU.

[geetarpicker]

On most gigs these days I leave my original '68 4x12 back at the house. However I have a stripped beater '71ish 4x12 w/25 watt Scumback M75s for bar and festival duties. I also have two sealed 1x12s, both with 65 watt rated M75s. Scumback also makes a 100 watt version of the M75 that I've never tried, though I've never blown up one of my 65 watt ones with an Express. All the these speakers seem just a tad more dirty/compressed sounding than my originals when pushed. However it's not a big increase in drive, just slightly noticable. When only running a single M75 the effeciency comes down even more compared to a 4x12, and on a gig you may not need any attenuation downsized as such.

So my vote is try a "high power" version of the M75 Scumback in a 1x12 as the voicing is quite like old 25s but they can take more power. Miked up into a nice PA and EQed a bit at the board for bigger lows it will be close to a 4x12 sound out front.

Another trick to tame the highs is to staple gun a few layers of felt over the speaker cutout. It takes away the extreme treble over say 8k, but leaves the 4k and down pretty much untouched. Walmart sells little squares of felt for less than $1 each, actually they are just a tad longer on one side. I find you can just fit one going across the cutout with some gaps on the sides, but then you put another on 90 degrees to that. The corners where they are stapled will fall outside the cutout, and will leave openings for the 4 mounting screws. Doing it this way you can put the felt either in front of the baffle or even on the speaker side right under the mounting gasket. Put about 4 layers and you can make most cabs have that thick basket weave grill type darkness. I run the felt trick on all my Scumback cabs, and with that they are all actually just a tad darker than my original '68 basket weave cab with original G12Ms 25.

GK

[redshark]

Thanks for your answer guys, and yes I've been thinking to try a single 100 watt scumback or silver bell, or celestion G100H in a close back cabinet to decrease the efficiency instead of using an attenuator but generating a darkness enough to compensate for the express running with the "bright switch" on a la Glen and create a warm sound.
The challenge is there I guess, more opinions guys?

[dartanion]

The reason that I like using Fanes with wreck style amps is that they are tuned darker in general when compared to most Celestions. The extended low end sounds great and there is no huge 1.5kHz - 2.5kHz hump to accentuate the brightness of a wreck. As well, there is no need to staple felt over the speakers or replace your grill cloth with heavy basket weave to reduces highs. No disrespect Glen, but the felt seems like a bandaid solution. Quite resourceful, but using a different speaker with a reduced high end hump makes more sense to me.

There are other "dark voiced" speakers out there too. I am just working from my one experience. I do also like G12M 55Hz version, and some of the Fane tone clones like the Emi Tonker, Lynch Super V, Sugar Cones, etc.

As well, you use long instrument cables to roll off high end too, right? I like that approach much more than the felt and use it myself with certain amps. I know that it is especially tough to reduce high end when you prefer the bright switch on, and your approach works quite well. IIRC, didn't Albert Collins run 100' cables. Thickened his tele tones without loosing too much high end.

[redshark]

I agree with both of you guys!! Tone is created by "compensation", the express we all know is loud and could be bright with the "bright switch" on. That is why a closed back cab is needed, then dark speakers, I will check those fanes.
The "bright switch" enhances the harmonic complexity in a wreck specialy in the cleans (volume down in guitar) that is why I think Glen uses dark cab(close back), dark speakers, long cables, is all valid to compensate.
Many people here had mentioned the xpress being bright but guitar, speaker cab, speakers and touch all play a role to shape "a tone".
I would like to read more succesful stories about speakers and effects please!!

[dartanion]

If you are a big pedal junkie, then the Express and Liverpool and not nearly as good as the Rocket for a pedal platform. Certain things work with the higher gain cousins, whereas the Rocket just eats up any pedal very well. I am going to be experimenting with a 3 amp setup with a clean amp, board into clean amp, dirty amp. I have one of those 3 Bangers which is configured in the any/all amp mode, so a Torpedo 30 (clean), Torpedo 50 (Fx), and Vapour 30 (dirty). Should be interesting.

You can also tweak the circuit to your own tastes. Changing component types, etc.

[geetarpicker]

True the felt trick on my Scumbacks is sort of a band aid to dail them in that last little bit but they are new speakers any way you look at it. I noticed that after about a year of gigs on the Scumbacks in my 4x12 I was able to take out some of the felt (2 layers down from 4) because the speakers had become more broken in over time. That said, my 1x12 cabs are a Mesa which has ultra thin grill cloth, and my other 1x12 is a Gallien Krueger box with a perforated metal grill that needs something. Both of these cabs literally only have a few dozen hours on them. My #1 prefered speaker with the wreck are my original pulsonic cone 25w greenbacks, that of which when in a basketweave cab are just fine as-is with no felt assistance needed! Perhaps I should experiment with speakers more, but I've been using the old Celestions since the 80s and the Scumbacks are the closest I've run across to giving me what I'm used to in a new speaker. I guess I had a bad experience with Fanes back in the 80s in an AC30 that sounded like total mud, total the opposite of what you would expect from such an amp.

Also I find when going for controlled feedback some speakers are easier to predict how it's going to go. Some speakers will push the guitar/amp to take off in random directions, and other speakers seem more apt to do what you want. Much effort in guitar position in relation to the cab is always important, but I always seem to be able to pull off more in this regard with the old G12Ms. Perhaps they have a flatter more even response I don't know, but somehow they work for me in a more predictable way.

True it's all a balancing act!

Lately i've been doing some shows with pedals on one of my two clones. I keep one amp setup with x3 12ax7s for playing straight in. My other clone has a 12au7 in V1, a 12ay7 in V2, and a 12ax7 in V3. It's like a totally different amp and with that setup takes pedals quite well.

[dartanion]

The 80s were the "Dark Ages", pun intended, for Fane. Wharfdale bought them out, did god knows what to the guitar lines, ran the Fane name into the ground then sold it off. Multiple owners later, Arthur Barnes steps in and buys Fane. He was a production worker starting in 1966 and eventually plant manager at the point they were sold to Wharfdale.

Anyway, the Barnes family has been working diligently to rebuild Fanes name and reputation. They are making great speakers these days that harken back to their heyday of the 60s and 70s. They have brought back many of the personnel from the heyday to build Fanes the right way.

Experimenting is a great thing as you never know what you'll like. My favorite versions are different in many places that what Ken did. It's all something to learn from and expand on.

[Bear]

Interesting on the Fane history. I understand that the earliest Bluedog reissues had been commissioned from Fane instead of Celestion, late 80's-ish? -- were those still the dark ages?

Interesting tidbits here of where frequencies are added or subtracted. Reminds me of some of the quirks of a top-boost tone stack on a Vox with a cut control -- sometimes it's more fun to add treble up front and lose it before output because the gain behavior is different. On the cable darkening, you can get a really long cable or a curly cable ala Hendrix, or you can go for low capacitance cable and add a "sweet switch" like early PRS guitars to have the capacitance effect available only when you want it. (Bill Lawrence has a bit of a spiel about this on the cable section of his website, discussing how it moves the resonant peak of a Strat.)

When I had a silverface Bandmaster, I always thought it was way too trebly. (The JBL K110's that I had didn't help -- bright mofos, nice clean, but difficult with gain.) Years later I hear about the alleged Roy Buchanan setup-- treble and volume full up on the Fender amp, tone and volume down on the guitar. I could see that working and justifies the knobs being on the guitar. God help you when you hit the bridge pickup on a Strat, though.

So many ways to do not exactly the same thing. It keeps tone chasing interesting because the differences matter in subtle ways.

[redshark]

About the pedals, I don't consider myself a pedal junkie but I would like wah or some univibe. Haven't tried the vibe yet but I tried wah and with the guitar volume up it works fine but using the wah with a clean sound (guitar volume rolled back) is annoying how noisy it gets specialy on the "treble side".
I guess I need to try diferent wahs to see which one has less noise level or maybe a darker wah. I play a Teese picture wah and is not noisy with any amp until I tried to use it with the express.